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Police Taser 7500 London police carry them

107 replies

justasking111 · 01/05/2024 17:09

The attack yesterday in which a 14 year old boy died and two officers were badly hurt did not carry tasers. I thought all police carried them these days.

7500 out of 34000 London officers carry them. Should more police carry them?

OP posts:
mossylog · 02/05/2024 09:48

VestibuleVirgin · 02/05/2024 09:23

@mossylog
it was in response to a 13yr old being tasered.
And I ask the same question about another of your points -

  • how many 'wrong people' have been tasered?
  • how many have died from hitting their head on the ground?

Tasers are just more deadly than you're assuming. To take UK in 2022, 11 people died after police used force against them, and in three of those cases tasers were used. Any deaths from police are concerning, but 27% of lethal use of police force with a supposedly "non-lethal" weapon is especially questionable.

In the States, where tasers have been deployed much more widely, despite the company's clains, over a 1000 people have died after contact with a taser.

Last year a man won thousands in damages in the UK after being shot in the back with a taser. He broke his hand. Serious injuries on falling are common with tasers. A 95 year old woman fell over and cracked her skull open and died after the police tasered her in Australia. These sorts of incidents would become more common here in the UK if all the cops were armed with these things.

IOPC publishes figures on deaths during or following police contact for 2022/23 | Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC)

https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/iopc-publishes-figures-deaths-during-or-following-police-contact-202223

Rewis · 02/05/2024 09:50

WittiestUsernameEver · 01/05/2024 20:42

Arming police will absolutely not reduce violent crime.

If it did, why is there huge amounts of violent crime in countries with armed police? Or doesn't act as a deterrent. It makes things worse!

Uk has higher rate of violent crimes than several European countries where (almost) all police carry firearms.

Hereyoume · 02/05/2024 10:04

Motomum23 · 02/05/2024 09:06

I think you are deliberately misunderstanding me. I didn't say their response to this particular incident was poor or untrustworthy but let's face it they haven't had the greatest press in the last few years. I don't think arming police indiscriminately will help that. Only 2 days ago a MET policeman was found guilty of the rape of a child, 5 years before that he had been suspected of a different rape but not charged. You want him to have had a tazer!?

So all Nurser shouldn't be trusted because one of them was Lucy Letby?

All nursery workers should be vilified because one of them was Vanessa George.

All female teachers should be viewed as child predators because half a dozen have been jailed for child abuse in just the last six months.

The logic of using the behaviour of one person to reflect the behaviour of a whole group is not just flawed, its divisive.

The "Police" are not one person.

Hereyoume · 02/05/2024 10:06

WittiestUsernameEver · 02/05/2024 09:12

Having armed police won't stop your child getting hurt if somebody goes on a rampage

It absolutely would if we were prepared to spend the money to have more officers. Had there been an officer on that street, who was properly armed and trained. That murdering lunatic would have been stopped BEFORE he killed that child and injured all those other people.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 02/05/2024 10:08

Littlebitpsycho · 01/05/2024 17:14

I think all police officers should have them, not just in London.

And I think the threshold for being able to use them should be lower too

IMO there is enough evidence that the police are too quick to abuse their current powers. Giving them the ability to injure, maim or even kill inncoent members of teh public is not the right move

Hereyoume · 02/05/2024 10:14

WittiestUsernameEver · 02/05/2024 09:13

I'd m in fact, I'd go as far as to say your child be at more risk from the police than a criminal if they were all armed

🙄

Yeah!

Because the police stabbed 12,783 people last year.

Oh no, sorry, those attacks were carried out by ordinary, law abiding members of the public.

Hereyoume · 02/05/2024 10:17

mossylog · 02/05/2024 09:20

@Hereyoume I answered this in my follow up post above. Tasers are appropriate to use against spree killers, but the OP's question was whether more police should have them and the answer is no.

@VestibuleVirgin Take a moment to think about:

  1. Not every person knows they have a heart condition
  2. Not every person subjected to police tasering is guilty of a crime
  3. A taser can miss and hit the wrong person
  4. A person can die from tasering when they don't have a pre-existing condition-- for one thing, they can just hit their head when thrashing on the ground

No you didn't answer MY question.

So try again.

Hereyoume · 02/05/2024 10:21

mossylog · 02/05/2024 09:48

Tasers are just more deadly than you're assuming. To take UK in 2022, 11 people died after police used force against them, and in three of those cases tasers were used. Any deaths from police are concerning, but 27% of lethal use of police force with a supposedly "non-lethal" weapon is especially questionable.

In the States, where tasers have been deployed much more widely, despite the company's clains, over a 1000 people have died after contact with a taser.

Last year a man won thousands in damages in the UK after being shot in the back with a taser. He broke his hand. Serious injuries on falling are common with tasers. A 95 year old woman fell over and cracked her skull open and died after the police tasered her in Australia. These sorts of incidents would become more common here in the UK if all the cops were armed with these things.

Mossy.

You clearly have no clue how to read statistics.

Dis those three people die BECAUSE of a taser, or did they die from something else, in an incident where a Taser was used.

For example, in the murder of Cerys Yemm in Wales. The murderer died after being Tased, but the Taser was not the cause of death.

Hereyoume · 02/05/2024 10:23

Tryingtokeepgoing · 02/05/2024 10:08

IMO there is enough evidence that the police are too quick to abuse their current powers. Giving them the ability to injure, maim or even kill inncoent members of teh public is not the right move

You think the police in the UK have "powers"

😂

They really don't. That's why there is so much violent crime.

Dotjones · 02/05/2024 10:28

Police should be armed and citizens with no criminal record should be allowed to carry firearms themselves. Many rampage killings could have been prevented or at least have fewer victims if normal members of the public who encounter them early in their rampage had a means to stop them.

mossylog · 02/05/2024 10:34

@Hereyoume Look up Dalian Atkinson. You know tasers can be fatal, you're just being disingenuous now.

mossylog · 02/05/2024 10:39

Dotjones · 02/05/2024 10:28

Police should be armed and citizens with no criminal record should be allowed to carry firearms themselves. Many rampage killings could have been prevented or at least have fewer victims if normal members of the public who encounter them early in their rampage had a means to stop them.

And how much more deadly would rampage killers be if firearms were widespread? Are spree killings less frequent and deadly in the US where people can carry firearms everywhere? Come on.

WinterMorn · 02/05/2024 10:49

WittiestUsernameEver · 02/05/2024 09:13

I'd m in fact, I'd go as far as to say your child be at more risk from the police than a criminal if they were all armed

You are just being silly now, plus your anti-Police agenda is rather evident.

justasking111 · 02/05/2024 11:20

Trouble is if you have guns, they can be taken off you and used against you.

I'm fine with sporting shotguns. In the UK.

Just can't fathom why any civilian needs machine type guns which are sold in the states, they're of no use for sports.

But it's for them to make changes.

OP posts:
ShadesofPoachedSmoke · 02/05/2024 11:22

Crumpleton · 01/05/2024 17:57

I saw a discussion about this on TV and I actually agree a truncheon is useless as the difference in policing the streets today as opposed to the 80s/90s, and before, is back then it was very very rare that people went out carrying a sword or machete.

It still is very rare for large sword/machete type attacks. That's why it becomes such a big news story any time it happens.

Sadly stabbings with the kind of knives easily available online by clicking a box to say you are 18 are more common - and I'd like to see the sales restricted in some more efficient way.

mossylog · 02/05/2024 11:49

Hereyoume · 02/05/2024 10:06

It absolutely would if we were prepared to spend the money to have more officers. Had there been an officer on that street, who was properly armed and trained. That murdering lunatic would have been stopped BEFORE he killed that child and injured all those other people.

You're just getting even sillier now. How would the police have gunned down the guy with the sword before he killed someone, when trying to kill someone is how you know someone has a sword? The killer drove his van into someone then started his rampage. We probably shouldn't shoot all van drivers just in case.

Also, there are about 790,000 roads in the country — should there be a trained armed guard idling all day on on every corner? While you might want the UK to become a totalitarian police state, most British people do not want that.

AnxiousRabbit · 02/05/2024 12:09

justasking111 · 01/05/2024 17:13

"Met could issue more Tasers to officers after Hainault sword attack, Sir Mark Rowley says" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/01/met-could-issue-more-tasers-hainault-sword-attack-rowley/

That says 7,500 of 26,000.....not 34,000
So just under a 1/3 of front line officers.

I think there could be more, but certainly not all.
There has to be some control and we don't want to end up like american cop dramas where the police are so reliant on guns they forget the skill of policing using other methods (and no-one ever questions their use).

I do think lots of people repeat the phrase "police by consent" without actually understanding it. Policing by consent is about society, not individuals. Our society asks a police force to protect us, and to investigate crime. That doesn't mean individuals get to opt out or police shouldn't use force if an individual isn't complying.

Similarly the reasons tasers are disproportionately used more against those with mental health issues and minorities are complex....and often justifiable. Not a reason not to use them, but a reason to have controls on their use.

tokennamechange · 02/05/2024 12:34

mossylog · 01/05/2024 20:54

Tasers aren't safe. More tasers will mean more people (including innocent people) having intense pain inflicted on them, with more deaths (from heart attack, striking head on falling etc.). They're preferable to firearms, but we shouldn't encourage their proliferation.

Your own link says in one of the biggest studies, 99.7% of the 1000 people tasered suffered no or very minor ill effects. That's incredibly safe. The 0.3% who were seriously ill/died could have been as likely to have done so (i.e suffered cardiac arrest/banged head) could equally have done so with other uses.of force if it got to the stage where it was necessary.

I used to be on a taser working group and for the vast majority of people being tasered was much less dangerous and left them with far fewer injuries than normal restraint/being gassed/whacked over the head with a truncheon, because the whole point of a taser is the minute you let go of the trigger the current stops. Whereas once you've been gassed or hit hard the side effects can carry on for hours/weeks..

Tasers are most effective as a deterrent. When you see statistics for taser "use" in the uk this counts everything from just drawing it from the holster and saying "taser!" As a warning and "sparking" it. In a huge proportion of cases this is enough to contain the situation because people don't want to get tasered!

However they are actually quite hard to use effectively in an emergency situation -you have to get both barbs (although not sure now if they have models with just one barb) within a set point of each other, ideally on a large area like a torso. Really hard to do on a moving target.

Only one barb "hits", or they hit somewhere like a leg, or the subject is wearing a thick heavy coat, nothing will happen.

You can also use it in drive stun mode but for that you have to keep holding the taser right against the subjects skin. This is a key reason lots of officers don't want to carry tasers - because they are scared the subject will overpower them and use the taser against them!

justasking111 · 02/05/2024 12:39

In the 90s I worked at a conference centre. En route to the centre when a political conference took place the powers that be pollarded the trees so that gunmen couldn't hide in them. They used sniffer dogs three times beforehand at the conference centre and the hotel that the important delegates were staying in. The cruising police cars carried weapons and there was a submarine in the bay.

Our police force had extra training because of the ira activities at the time.

They did all this when royalty were in the area too. In fact they still do this. It's unobtrusive but it's there.

I was shocked at the Westminster attack because I had assumed that officers were on red alert at all times.

OP posts:
justasking111 · 02/05/2024 12:58

"Murder of Jennifer Mills-Westley - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jennifer_Mills-Westley

We can't guard against lunatics with swords and machetes. The beheading above was shocking but could happen anywhere

Murder of Jennifer Mills-Westley - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jennifer_Mills-Westley

OP posts:
penjil · 02/05/2024 13:04

category12 · 01/05/2024 17:34

No, I don't want the police carrying more weapons more often.

....and that's why London and many other places in the UK are lawless, and the criminals know it.

mossylog · 02/05/2024 13:15

@tokennamechange The point is that more tasers leads to more police using tasers in a situation where they would never previously escalate to violence (like batons, gas etc, which I agree are both more dangerous). For example, shooting people in the back causing serious injuries from falling (e.g. Ivan Marvin, Jordan Walker-Brown), or shooting weak old people who could have been constrained without excessive force. It's use is often not proportional.

TheCoffeeNebula · 02/05/2024 13:40

Hereyoume · 02/05/2024 10:06

It absolutely would if we were prepared to spend the money to have more officers. Had there been an officer on that street, who was properly armed and trained. That murdering lunatic would have been stopped BEFORE he killed that child and injured all those other people.

You can't have a police officer on every street, ready to respond to any potential attacker before they get a chance to attack anyone. It's not possible. We'd need like a million police officers 🤣 Even if they were on every street, or even just known risky streets, a person can be killed with a mid-size, easily-hidden knife in seconds — even police officers stationed every 500 metres carrying guns and with their heads on a swivel couldn't remove that risk entirely.

The best you can do is have ways to quickly alert the police when people do things like this — like an emergency phone call handling service, or possibly, in a few years, a blanket surveillance system monitored by sophisticated AI, if that's your thing (it's not mine, but I think it'll be possible soon — and we may get it whether we want it or not). Right now, it's phones. Police are alerted to the incident, and appropriate units should be dispatched with appropriate urgency.

I would like there to be well-trained, well-supported officers from a well-funded police force ready to send out, including armed officers, if necessary, in fast-response units covering areas they can respond within rapidly. I'd like the armed officers (including those carrying tasers) to know that their weapons use will be closely monitored and interrogated, but for their training (including all the interpersonal and de-escalation type training) to be rigorous enough for them to feel comfortable that if the worst happens and the weapons are needed, they'll have no trouble carrying out their work within the strictures of the law and police policy, and feeling that they did all they could to minimise harm. And I'd like them to be able to feel confident that if they are required to put that weapons training into practice, and do so in good faith and according to the rules and laws, they will not be unnecessarily penalised or scapegoated, including by punitive-feeling investigations, statements made to the press, or speculative journalists.

We don't seem to have all aspects of this, or, at least, some of them are under significant strain. Many police officers seem to be, if anything, more reluctant to carry guns than members of the public are reluctant to have them carrying them — there's a lot of extra stress and risk involved, and not much reward. Some of that stress and risk is intrinsic to the fact that they'll be put in even more dangerous situations, and may have to harm or kill another human being, but some of it is because they've heard stories of what can happen to firearms officers who've felt that they used their weapons according to their training while dealing with difficult situations, who then have to spend an incredibly long time being routinely investigated in a way that can be very difficult to deal with.

Even if all the issues making officers reluctant to sign up for weapons training were fixed (while retaining safeguards against inappropriate use of weapons, of course), I'm sure there are people in our police force currently who wouldn't have joined if carrying a gun were part and parcel of being a standard everyday police officer. I'm not sure we should force it on them, and if we try, they might just leave, especially if we don't first fix the problems many perceive the system to have. And we're low on police as it is. (We might gain some who join specifically because they get to have a gun, but I'm not sure we want that…)

I know some American police systems, for example, seem pretty broken when it comes to police using guns, because in some areas they appear to be allowed to shoot people with minimal provocation and with near-impunity, but our systems seem to be struggling with (among many other things) the way we've implemented safeguards against excessive gun use, which have made some officers unwilling to train in firearms who would otherwise make good armed officers. Perhaps we need to look at how other countries, maybe especially those who arm more or all of their police officers, manage accountability and safeguards against overreach?

If we can fix these problems so that officers are still accountable for any weapons use but have confidence in the combination of their training and the systems used to monitor their conduct, we might find it easier to recruit enough firearms and taser-trained officers to meet the need for them. We also need to fund the police more broadly, recruiting and training officers to carry out other aspects of policing. And better funding for other services, whose work often devolves onto police by default, is needed. Then even without making all police officers carry guns (or tasers) all the time, dispatchers should always have access to sufficient armed units to send to incidents like the one that promoted this conversation (barring major incidents, but then that can be a problem regardless).

Some people will still die in attacks, because police don't have access to transportation and time travel. But that would happen even with all officers armed and streets crawling with police. I guess you could say that it would be better to be able to send the nearest officer and know that they're armed regardless, and it's possible that that might result in a slightly faster response time to a certain percentage of incidents. But that doesn't seem like it would really be better than a smaller number of intensively-trained, fast-response, armed units who've volunteered for the task and specialise in dangerous situations, with other police officers being more heavily trained in other tasks.

I guess shoving a gun in every police officer's hand whether they like it or not is probably dead cheap tho. And could make a politician very popular with a certain crowd.

justasking111 · 02/05/2024 13:55

Hundred plus years ago in London there were no go areas for the peelers. Fascinating programme on radio 4 about this.

Today in Yorkshire a relatives husband admitted there were no go areas there, they self policed. He asked for a transfer to another area.

In some places the police are outnumbered, they're the ones unarmed.

OP posts:
Turkey98 · 02/05/2024 14:02

No, quite the opposite. They should be used only by specialist teams and it should be assumed by default it was not a proportionate action until a jury has concluded the action was the only alternative. (i.e. a citizen jury should examine each and every incident).

We must not lose sight of so much corruption and bad police officers. Any force should be a last resort and considered inappropriate.

In the case currently being discussed, the is a rare situation and all the above would still work - but much more protection for the public and accountability.

I don't believe the police should ever use weapons unless it is proven imminent danger exists and a weapon has been seen. Seen too many videos of trigger happy police.