I’m worried about my 8 year old

[WorriedAbout8YearOld]

I don’t have anyone to talk to about this and I’m really struggling right now. I know best place would be parenting but I also know this section gets more traffic. Thank you in advance of advice I receive. apologies in advance of any spelling errors or things not making sense as I’m quickly typing.

I’m really worried about my 8 year old daughter. She lies a lot and it’s getting worse. There have been numerous incidents on a weekly basis which are too trivial to mention but I’m going to discuss 2 incidents the chocolate one from today and baby oil one from a little while ago.

previous incident - baby oil - we had only moved into our new home few months prior and I noticed there was wet marks on the walls in my room, my sons room and in hallway. I got really worried as we had had a shower leaking and I got worried it’s something to do with that or damp. Long story short I figured out my daughter had in anger squirted baby oil on all the walls. She completely denied it and even though I found an empty bottle under her bed! She was so convincing that I actually started doubting myself. She did finally admit it a few days later and told me she did it as she was angry with me and she wanted to make me sad (we had just finished decorating the house and I was really happy with my room colour and wallpaper). She said she wanted to make me sad as I told her off about not punching her brother in his head. She said it’s all my fault as I made her angry.

today incident - we had dinner and I give kids a small treat after dinner. I also have one . My DH got me my favourite chocolate and when I went to eat it it was gone. He was adamant he put it in fridge. We looked everywhere. When I was putting dishes away I found it half eaten in the cupboard.not a big deal as it’s just chocolate but my daughters reaction again worried me. She completely lied to my face. She is so convincing. I’ve babysat for nieces and nephews and there’s always give away signs like laughing or smiling when they are lying but with her she’s really convincing. Even my younger one I can tell he’s lying straight away and he will start laughing.

The baby oil incident she kind of gaslighted me (I know how this sounds, she 8 years old I know she’s a child! It sounds crazy writing this) she said she lied as the first time I asked her she told me the truth that she actually did squirt it (she did not) but as I kept asking if she did it she lied and said no she didn’t.

generally she’s a lovely girl. She does amazing at school, very well liked. Never had any friendship issues or fallouts. she’s very loved in the family. Grandparents especially Inlaws adore her as she’s the only girl on my husbands side. She gets little treats every now and then. But why are my senses and gut telling me something is seriously wrong?

My DS often tells me other things she’s done but I don’t always ask her and DH jokes he’s a tell -tale. Just little things like she splashed water into my work shoes and bigger thing (which I did speak to her about) that she hid my wedding rings. I took them off for washing dishes and couldn’t find. Looked everywhere and asked kids too but she denied and DS told me he saw her playing with them - I found them in her room.

She’s turning 9 next week.

I only added she’s turning 9 so advice can be relevant to her age group.

Lying is very common in little kids because they literally don't remember the difference between 'what really happened' and 'what I wish had happened'. Your dd is maybe a bit old for that but I'd treat it in the same away. Which means, ignore the lie and deal the problem behaviour. Tell her off for eating the chocolate and ignore the lying.

Strangely, if you tell a kid off for lying (more than the original offence) they just learn to lie better next time.

@parietal thank you good advice I will try to do this but she was so convincing earlier. I actually wondered if I had eaten it and put in cupboard! I know I obviously didn’t but there seemed no other logical answer as she was so adamant she didn’t eat it. I told her she will not get in trouble. She was in kitchen so I know she had eaten it, DS was sleeping and unlesss my DH has a secret eating disorder! But she wouldn’t admit it.

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/why-do-children-lie-normal-compulsive-pathological-lying-in-kids-0107197

This is quite a good article. There's also quite a lot of information online relating a high level of lying to ADHD as the child lies to cover up the impulsive behaviour.

I didn’t want to write this as I wanted to gain others insights first but real reason I’m writing this is because I think she might have sociopathic tendencies. I know this sounds crazy and I would never say this to anyone not even my DH! But I feel I can talk to strangers about this and if I’m overthinking I can just forget and get on with my life and no one will know how what a horrible thing I’m thinking about my DD and how crazy I must sound. I just have a feeling in my gut, it’s not just the lying it’s I feel she doesn’t really care about others feelings. She gets happy when DS hurts himself (I know might be sibling rivalry), there’s lots of other examples but I’m feeling so drained I just need to get to sleep.

@Domino20 thank you for this. I will have a read later.

How do you react if she does something wrong? Kids lie so they don't get in trouble.

Nothing you have said suggests she's a sociopath.

@Josette77 they have a reward chart so I take a star off and naughty step depending on what they’ve done. So if she hits her brother it’s 2 stars off and 15 minutes in the step. I speak to her too. There’s a feeelings chart on her bedroom wall (both have it, hers is more decriptive and his is pictures showing feelings). I ask her to tell me her feelings when she hits him and it’s always angry.

Has she achieved the rewards for something positive? I dont think taking them away helps as you're basically saying that her (previous) achievement isn't worth anything .
How old is her brother? We had sibling rivalry with 2 children we fostered so we had a group star chart (actually a spotty dalmation) when we saw them do something nice/kind/helpful to anyone we put a 'spot on the dog' . When we collected the full spots we got a family treat. We would also ask a sibling if the other had done something they liked and that would get a spot on the dog as well.

Time out. Basically when children really need our help to regulate especially with anger/upset, we have put them on the naughty step and expected them to deal with those really big emotions alone. But if you do use it 15 mjns is too long, I think a minute per Yr is the norm.

A lot of people now do a time in rather than time out. Saying to the child i can see you have some big feelings and you must be feeling wobbly/upset, how can I help you?
Learn some calming/breathing techniques/activities.

Lots of kids lie like this, a lot of it is guilt and shame although comes across as cocky, and for some it goes on well into their teens, even when you have physically SEEN their behaviour they will deny it! Most kids do grow out if it. Don't get into a discussion with her. If you know she has done it, let her know that and then say you're not going to discuss it further.

Wasn't going to comment but please, please don't remove stickers from her chart! She earned them, and she deserves those good things to remain recognised regardless of subsequent poor behaviour. She'll start to think it's not worth the effort of being good if they can just be taken away so easily - you're inadvertently devaluing them and devaluing the good things she does. I would also say 15mins on the step is probably too long. She'll start to resent you / think how she could have covered up better / get used to it and daydream, thereby losing its point.

No advice about the lying unfortunately, but really focus on praising all the little things she does that are positives. And whenever you do have an incident where she's lashed out, make sure (you're probably already doing so) that you validate her feelings but talk about what she could / should have done instead. Stress that it's okay to feel angry but not to hurt others because of it. You could try scenarios with Barbies if you think she'd respond, or use of social stories - there are lots online. Also effective is you talking about and modelling your own feelings and what you do when you're feeling angry - not just as a response to her, but in everyday life. "Ooh, that car cut me up and I'm feeling really angry. Deep breaths etc."

The being happy when sibling is hurt...I was actually reading about that the other day. Some children really struggle with emotions and their reactions and it pushes all our buttons because we perceive it exactly as you said - mean and unkind. But sometimes it's more of an inappropriate response not out of vindictiveness but because a tiny back part of their brain responds by thinking "how can I make this better? People smile when I smile or laugh, so I'll do that." It's a weird thing that they don't always even know they're doing - so you then find them trying to hide the smiles because their head knows it's not right, but the instinct to try to make things better by smiling / laughing kicked in first.

That may or may not be true for your dd, but worth remembering.

Good luck.

Group rewards like pp mentioned are great too, and promote teamwork amongst children who otherwise might not get along particularly well. Good call, Mama2! I've done marbles in a jar, scales on Rainbow Fish, petals on flowers... also good is getting the children (if old enough) to recognise when the others did something good enough... "I think Bob deserves to put a marble in our jar because he helped me tidy my room." Again, building positives.

She's 8, it's par for the course when they are caught out.

For what it's worth, I came down very hard on mine for lying, every time.

As adults, they remind me of this, but they are all among the most honest people I know.

I would also be worried. However many children who show worrying traits go on to lead normal lives. In your position, I would have her see a pediatric psychologist specialist in anti social personality disorders.

This.

It can be serious or nothing. Only a professional can tell you.

I would definitely get some help.

From the little I can see of the situation she is jealous of the attention you give her brother.

All the examples you give relate to hitting her brother and her targeting you in some way / wanting you to feel upset (your work shoes, your chocolate, your wedding rings and even saying she wanted you to feel upset about the baby oil).

She comes across as quite unhappy to me and I would certainly want to try and make things more positive for her which might solve the lying.

It sounds like quite a negative circle that she is angry with her brother (why? Jealous of the attention he gets perhaps?), then she hits him, then she loses rewards and is stuck on the stairs for 15 mins (too long) and meanwhile brother is having lovely one to one time with you and she comes back feeling even more upset about that making her angry, which she can only keep the lid on for so long.

Lying is very common in that age group, and kids that age can be very, very convincing in their lies. My (then) 9 year old had a whole year of lying about everything from little things like whether or not he had cleaned his teeth or tidied his room, to bigger things like stealing money (from us) and trying alcohol. It really frightened us because he was otherwise a bright, lovely, happy kid who friends, family, teachers etc thought was fabulous. Yet here he was putting on an Oscar award winning performance, to the point that we seriously doubted ourselves (even though the evidence was incontrovertible). We dealt with the stealing and drinking, and put it behind us, and then focussed on the 'trivial' lying, as that seemed to be the bigger issue as the lies were his automatic response to anything and just rolling off his tongue. I'd like to say my supreme parenting skills resolved the issue, but we really just clearly stated and reinforced our boundaries and expectations, and then he seemed to mature and grow out of it. It was super stressful though, and I'm glad we're past it.

Thank you so much everyone for the advice and insight. I’m glad to hear your kids have grown up into kind and honest adults. I feel really bad for her but also scared of the lying, which seems is quite normal from reading these comments. I really like the group rewards jar idea! Thank you

I think you should focus on the connection/bond rather than rewards charts and Time outs. Have discussions about morality and trust. It all sounds very transactional and like she is rebelling against feeling powerless/not in control.
Ps I'm not an expert.

OP this is tough. I used to worry the same about my son (now 15). He used to laugh if his friend was hurt and told me once he enjoyed the feeling he got when other children cried. He used to lie a lot too but mostly for attention. He’s since grown out of most of that and is a lovely boy.

what really helped me was reminding myself that behaviour a child exhibits does not mean that they will be like this as an adult and often they do just grow out of this phase.

I Suspect that your 8 year old is angry towards you and probably just wanting some positive attention. You mentioned a house move and perhaps that’s been a very big change for her and perhaps you may have been distracted or giving attention to the decorating/house move.

I would tend to ignore the lying part as another OP said, and ask yourself what her behaviour is telling you? Kids often don’t have the words for how they feel and communicate through actions. Assume the best of her - she’s a good kid having a hard time, rather than she’s a bad kid giving you a hard time.