Page 37 | Assisted dying debate next week… To think this is a relief. So glad they’re finally debating this important issue.

Mavenss · 2024-04-26T17:59:23+00:00

We will be able to see which MPs are for or against assisted dying. This Monday 29th April, assisted dying will be debated in Westminster for the first time in two years. An absolutely incredible 203,000 people added their name to [[https://ca.engagingnetworks.app/page/email/click/2162/7065208?email=Rc3cp5aS0CkDfkUdrpdRoZmQCvNVYxKY&campid=9YL2yT2RiPe15xl1A%2FXc2A== the government petition]]spearheaded by Dame Esther Rantzen to make this happen, creating the largest ever parliamentary petition on assisted dying. *There will not be a vote on Monday, but this debate will be the last time before the General Election that MPs have an opportunity to show you that they are listening to our calls for safe and compassionate choice at the end of life. A majority of voters in every constituency support an assisted dying law. * * * The debate starts at 4:30pmand you can watch it live online through the [[https://ca.engagingnetworks.app/page/email/click/2162/7065209?email=Rc3cp5aS0CkDfkUdrpdRoZmQCvNVYxKY&campid=9YL2yT2RiPe15xl1A%2FXc2A== UK parliament website]]. YABU- it’s a silly idea, why are government even debating it? Assisted dying is a terrible idea. YANBU - I support the debate and assisted dying (under the agreed circumstances) I’m interested in the MN feedback here.

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 13:31

mybeesarealive · 26/06/2024 12:57

When I was mid twenties, my grandmother died. She had cancer in her bones, and faded away. She was in hospital for a long time. She died in a hospice. She was at times uncomfortable, and the overriding memory of it that I have is that for everyone else it was a period of waiting for the inevitable. I remember watching Deal or No Deal with her (it was circa 2005) on one of those hospital TVs that you had to pay for at the time via an access card. She called it "What's in the Box" 😂. I was there intermittently. My parents were there daily. For months. When she died, they were distraught, but completely wiped out physically and emotionally for months afterwards. It took a toll. But I am so proud of them. And what they did. Just being there. My grandma died with dignity because she received care, love and high quality palliative care. I am not sure the same would be true or possible today because of austerity and policy choices that have decimated NHS and social care. BUT THAT IS NOT A REASON TO MOVE TO ASSISTED DYING. It is a reason to repair the NHS, social care and palliative care services. There is no getting away from the fact that this debate always gains most traction when resources are scarce. And that should trouble advocates of the policy who say it is only for the terminally ill more than seems to be the case. I've said this a few times in this thread, but the alleged right of a few (relatively wealthy) individuals to what they see as a good death is no basis to implement a corruptable system that would inevitably prejudice the lives of the disabled and vulnerable. I know that's hard for those advocates to swallow, as they think they have the moral high ground - but that is only because they close their eyes to practical reality and the greater need to protect the right to life of other less privileged people.

Couldn’t agree more.

thepastinsidethepresent · 26/06/2024 14:06

mybeesarealive · 26/06/2024 12:57

When I was mid twenties, my grandmother died. She had cancer in her bones, and faded away. She was in hospital for a long time. She died in a hospice. She was at times uncomfortable, and the overriding memory of it that I have is that for everyone else it was a period of waiting for the inevitable. I remember watching Deal or No Deal with her (it was circa 2005) on one of those hospital TVs that you had to pay for at the time via an access card. She called it "What's in the Box" 😂. I was there intermittently. My parents were there daily. For months. When she died, they were distraught, but completely wiped out physically and emotionally for months afterwards. It took a toll. But I am so proud of them. And what they did. Just being there. My grandma died with dignity because she received care, love and high quality palliative care. I am not sure the same would be true or possible today because of austerity and policy choices that have decimated NHS and social care. BUT THAT IS NOT A REASON TO MOVE TO ASSISTED DYING. It is a reason to repair the NHS, social care and palliative care services. There is no getting away from the fact that this debate always gains most traction when resources are scarce. And that should trouble advocates of the policy who say it is only for the terminally ill more than seems to be the case. I've said this a few times in this thread, but the alleged right of a few (relatively wealthy) individuals to what they see as a good death is no basis to implement a corruptable system that would inevitably prejudice the lives of the disabled and vulnerable. I know that's hard for those advocates to swallow, as they think they have the moral high ground - but that is only because they close their eyes to practical reality and the greater need to protect the right to life of other less privileged people.

You summed it up perfectly.

VeryHappyBunny · 26/06/2024 14:32

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 00:30

knew exactly what she would have wanted

There are two massive points of weakness in that statement which mean you shouldn’t decide to kill somebody based on it.

a) she said she knew what she wanted (that doesn't make it true)
b) their discussion was before the lady was in the situation - as you go on to say, people can have a change of heart, and that can be in any direction.

She certainly wasn't laying their praying for one more day

Again, that’s how you feel. A lot of people would agree, it seems obvious. But we can’t know.

The arguments you have put forward are reasons which lead people to help their loved ones to take an overdose or smother them with a pillow - they aren’t reasons to legalise killing somebody based on an outside opinion of their experience.

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By what you have said there will never be AD for anyone because by the time you are in such a terrible situation it is too late as you would be deemed to be unable to make an informed choice, so debate is over - there will never be AD.

BIossomtoes · 26/06/2024 14:32

Thank you whoever reported my completely innocuous post which I can’t see infringed any guidelines. Is this what this debate has come to? Getting a post that disagrees with you deleted? It speaks volumes that you just want people who point out the flaws in your arguments to shut up and go away.

mybeesarealive · 26/06/2024 15:12

@BIossomtoes the post was deleted by MNHQ, so perhaps you simply breached the Talk Guidelines in their opinion. A bit paranoid to blame others.

mybeesarealive · 26/06/2024 15:13

By the way, before you accuse me, I didn't see what it said. It was down very quickly.

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 15:56

BIossomtoes · 26/06/2024 14:32

Thank you whoever reported my completely innocuous post which I can’t see infringed any guidelines. Is this what this debate has come to? Getting a post that disagrees with you deleted? It speaks volumes that you just want people who point out the flaws in your arguments to shut up and go away.

Mumsnet hq deleted it, so it must have breached talk guidelines… they don’t delete posts because other people disagree with them. If they did there wouldn’t be any posts on mumsnet at all!

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 15:59

VeryHappyBunny · 26/06/2024 14:32

By what you have said there will never be AD for anyone because by the time you are in such a terrible situation it is too late as you would be deemed to be unable to make an informed choice, so debate is over - there will never be AD.

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There is and has always been suicide. Those who believe that their life is or will be unliveable can take that route.

BIossomtoes · 26/06/2024 16:39

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 15:56

Mumsnet hq deleted it, so it must have breached talk guidelines… they don’t delete posts because other people disagree with them. If they did there wouldn’t be any posts on mumsnet at all!

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They delete everything that’s reported. No guidelines were broken.

fungipie · 26/06/2024 16:42

Whatsortofrockareyou · 25/06/2024 23:31

. No-one will ever convince me that she should have been left to endure this when a simple needle in the arm would have saved her from possibly weeks of unnecessary suffering.

You have no idea what her thoughts and feelings were in that situation.

You feel it would be intolerable for you- that’s absolutely valid- I wouldn’t want it for myself either. And faced with seeing it I too would comfort myself with the idea that AD will be legalised so I won’t have to experience that pain-

but she may have been a devout Catholic who believed all life is sacred. She might have been lying there praying for one more day in case her family came to hold her hand. She might have been afraid to meet her maker and found suffering but alive preferable.

We don’t know, so we don’t get to decide. What it makes us feel is irrelevant.

Edited

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Fair enough. What is being proposed however, is a way to make a real and very personal CHOICE when fully compos mentis, and without coercion. And not about it being enforced in any way, shape or form.

fungipie · 26/06/2024 16:45

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 15:59

There is and has always been suicide. Those who believe that their life is or will be unliveable can take that route.

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It is not as easy, and it can go very wrong. Fail, or lead to massive suffering. And can have a disastrous effect on family and those involved, be they ambulance staff, neighbours, train drivers, etc. Why should people not make the choice to do so safely, surely, quickly and painlessly?

fungipie · 26/06/2024 16:49

mybeesarealive (mine too btw) 'BUT THAT IS NOT A REASON TO MOVE TO ASSISTED DYING. It is a reason to repair the NHS, social care and palliative care services'

Why not aim for both? And have a choice.

VeryHappyBunny · 26/06/2024 17:12

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 15:59

There is and has always been suicide. Those who believe that their life is or will be unliveable can take that route.

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Do you believe it is better for people to kill themselves prematurely while they still have the strength rather than live a longer life and have it ended by AD or similar at a later date?

mybeesarealive · 26/06/2024 17:13

fungipie · 26/06/2024 16:49

mybeesarealive (mine too btw) 'BUT THAT IS NOT A REASON TO MOVE TO ASSISTED DYING. It is a reason to repair the NHS, social care and palliative care services'

Why not aim for both? And have a choice.

The answer was in the part of my post that you made a conscious decision to ignore. Your approach to debating is selective.

mybeesarealive · 26/06/2024 17:16

@Whatsortofrockareyou you've lost me I'm afraid with your comment suggesting suicide is an option for those who want it. Suicidal ideation is a symptom of mental illness in my experience. People need support, not encouragement when they go through it.

VeryHappyBunny · 26/06/2024 17:24

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 12:08

I agree.

I think a lot of it comes from fear of ending up in a situation that they wouldn’t choose (a long death),

and also intolerance of being made to see and have feelings about people dying. Death can be uncomfortable, guilt inducing, sad, scary, messy, boring, inconvenient, or a relief for the people left behind. Some people really can’t stand being made to deal with those (often conflicting) emotions so they want death to be tidied away. ‘A simple needle in the arm’ and they don’t have to endure the emotional discomfort.

(btw @mybeesarealive you have to be careful using ‘beyond the pale’ on mumsnet, some people find it very offensive).

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I don't have a problem with death or dying - just the manner in which it happens. When I was in hospital (for 3 months) there were quite a number of patients who died and the majority had a good death. They were peaceful and fairly pain free and had their family with them. There was one old lady in her late 90s who had a stroke on the ward and was in the bed opposite to me. The staff were going to move her to a side ward on her own. I asked why and was told that as she was dying it wasn't very nice for the other people on the ward, there were only 4 of us in total. I said that if it didn't bother anyone else it didn't bother me and that if she woke and was on her own she may be frightened. She stayed on the ward and I watched over her (I hardly slept due to pain) and alerted staff if she needed anything - she couldn't do this for herself. She eventually died on the day of the Queen's funeral. It was a peaceful end with no need for any intervention. She just gave a little gasp and that was it. We had the funeral on ipads and as she used to sing in several choirs it was the sort of music she enjoyed and in the great scheme of things it was not a bad way to go, a relatively good end to an otherwise good life.

This is the best any of us can hope for but for those who are in a very different situation there should be a better way than them having to suffer unknown physical pain and mental anguish.

Whilst I have been in this care home (18 months) there have been a number of other deaths and there is only the one person I have previously mentioned who would have benefited greatly from something like AD.

Clearly there have to be safeguards, but don't you think that there are already a great number of people who are being "offed" by their families or encouraged to kill themselves long before their time.

This is a very complex and contentious subject which will always divide opinion because if it was just dismissed out of hand or brought into law without discussion it would not serve anyone well but it will take a brave government to legalize it because of all the opposition.

fungipie · 26/06/2024 17:24

mybeesarealive · 26/06/2024 17:13

The answer was in the part of my post that you made a conscious decision to ignore. Your approach to debating is selective.

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Not at all. I read your post with great interest, and I totally agree that the state of the NHS and long waiting lists, etc, may well push some to ask for AD- and that this is very wrong.

Even in countries where the health service is excellent, and no waiting lists, etc, some people still get to a stage where AD is better than the alternative in their eyes, and where they do not see palliative care, however excellent, as the way they want to proceed.

I have a great friend in her 80s with multiple health issues which are making her life a misery and not worth living anymore and she just wants out. She does not have money for a private operation for her main debilitating health problem, and has been told the waiting list is 2 to 3 years. (but both Consultants said they could operate quickly if she had the money to go private). She wishes to have AD, because she just cannot imagine waiting 2 to 3 years- but cannot afford the 10K + to go to Switzerland. So yes, if the NHS was not in such a state, and force her to wait in pain and unable to get out. I totally agree.

So she has NO choice, onw both counts- NO choice to decent healthcare, and NO choice with AD. Her only choice is painful and totally undignified purgatory.

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 17:32

BIossomtoes · 26/06/2024 16:39

They delete everything that’s reported. No guidelines were broken.

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No, they really really don’t. Contact them, they will explain it to you. I report blatant ablism allll the time, 90% of posts aren’t removed.

mybeesarealive · 26/06/2024 17:36

@fungipie my jaw drops at your belief that providing access to AD would be a legitimate State response to an NHS patient suffering because of surgery waiting lists (and I thought AD was only for the terminally ill...). I suspect that you are losing more people than you are gaining in this debate with ideas like that.

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 17:37

VeryHappyBunny · 26/06/2024 17:24

I don't have a problem with death or dying - just the manner in which it happens. When I was in hospital (for 3 months) there were quite a number of patients who died and the majority had a good death. They were peaceful and fairly pain free and had their family with them. There was one old lady in her late 90s who had a stroke on the ward and was in the bed opposite to me. The staff were going to move her to a side ward on her own. I asked why and was told that as she was dying it wasn't very nice for the other people on the ward, there were only 4 of us in total. I said that if it didn't bother anyone else it didn't bother me and that if she woke and was on her own she may be frightened. She stayed on the ward and I watched over her (I hardly slept due to pain) and alerted staff if she needed anything - she couldn't do this for herself. She eventually died on the day of the Queen's funeral. It was a peaceful end with no need for any intervention. She just gave a little gasp and that was it. We had the funeral on ipads and as she used to sing in several choirs it was the sort of music she enjoyed and in the great scheme of things it was not a bad way to go, a relatively good end to an otherwise good life.

This is the best any of us can hope for but for those who are in a very different situation there should be a better way than them having to suffer unknown physical pain and mental anguish.

Whilst I have been in this care home (18 months) there have been a number of other deaths and there is only the one person I have previously mentioned who would have benefited greatly from something like AD.

Clearly there have to be safeguards, but don't you think that there are already a great number of people who are being "offed" by their families or encouraged to kill themselves long before their time.

This is a very complex and contentious subject which will always divide opinion because if it was just dismissed out of hand or brought into law without discussion it would not serve anyone well but it will take a brave government to legalize it because of all the opposition.

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Clearly there have to be safeguards, but don't you think that there are already a great number of people who are being "offed" by their families or encouraged to kill themselves long before their time.

Whether something happens in society or not is not a yardstick for if it should be made legal.

AthenaBasil · 26/06/2024 17:45

Solgrass · 26/04/2024 19:03

Once upon a time I would have agreed with you;however, I’ve seen what’s happening in Canada and it’s truly horrendous. It didn’t start out that way, it’s a slow creep.

I’m exactly the same. Reading about cases there and in some European countries made me change my position. I thought it would be easy to have a clear line with just people who are terminally ill and in terrible pain as candidates but it doesn’t seem like it stays that way.

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 17:48

mybeesarealive · 26/06/2024 17:16

@Whatsortofrockareyou you've lost me I'm afraid with your comment suggesting suicide is an option for those who want it. Suicidal ideation is a symptom of mental illness in my experience. People need support, not encouragement when they go through it.

I didn’t mean to imply people should be encouraged to commit suicide- that absolutely isn’t what I think!

I was trying to point out that when people argue that without AD people have no choice about their lives, that that isn’t true. Sadly people can and do commit suicide.

But I agree it’s a symptom of mental illness, and with proper medical support and social care many people wouldn’t feel like they can’t continue their lives.

I am disabled and chronically ill- I use a wheelchair, need help with personal care, live with chronic pain etc etc- I’m one of the people who everyone likes to point to and say ‘no one would want to live like that’ etc etc, and some people do feel like it isn’t worth carrying on- but I’m lucky in that I have excellent support around me and access to the care and medication I need, so I enjoy my life. Everyone should have the same opportunity for life as I do.

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 17:55

VeryHappyBunny · 26/06/2024 17:12

Do you believe it is better for people to kill themselves prematurely while they still have the strength rather than live a longer life and have it ended by AD or similar at a later date?

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I think it’s ‘better’ for support and care to be such that fewer people find their life intolerable.

I don’t think that some people wanting to be legally killed at a time it suits them is a reason to legalise AD because of the enormous associated risks to other vulnerable groups that that would bring in.

There isn’t a ‘solution’ to this situation- we can’t create a world where no one has to experience pain, illness or suffering- people always will.

The question is simply do we avoid possible suffering at the end of life for one group of people by risking the lives of other groups of people?

Whatsortofrockareyou · 26/06/2024 17:59

fungipie · 26/06/2024 16:45

It is not as easy, and it can go very wrong. Fail, or lead to massive suffering. And can have a disastrous effect on family and those involved, be they ambulance staff, neighbours, train drivers, etc. Why should people not make the choice to do so safely, surely, quickly and painlessly?

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disastrous effect on family and those involved,

This is also the case for AD- not everyone is ok with their family member deciding to be killed.

Why should people not make the choice to do so safely, surely, quickly and painlessly?

It isn’t as simple as that. Legalising AD has wider ranging effects than just giving people who want it that choice.

thepastinsidethepresent · 26/06/2024 18:03

Clearly there have to be safeguards, but don't you think that there are already a great number of people who are being "offed" by their families or encouraged to kill themselves long before their time.

Yes. Which is exactly why we shouldn't compound the risk.