Assisted dying debate next week… To think this is a relief. So glad they’re finally debating this important issue.

[Mavenss]

We will be able to see which MPs are for or against assisted dying.

This Monday 29th April, assisted dying will be debated in Westminster for the first time in two years. An absolutely incredible 203,000 people added their name to the government petitionspearheaded by Dame Esther Rantzen to make this happen, creating the largest ever parliamentary petition on assisted dying.

There will not be a vote on Monday, but this debate will be the last time before the General Election that MPs have an opportunity to show you that they are listening to our calls for safe and compassionate choice at the end of life. A majority of voters in every constituency support an assisted dying law.

The debate starts at 4:30pmand you can watch it live online through the UK parliament website.

YABU- it’s a silly idea, why are government even debating it? Assisted dying is a terrible idea.

YANBU - I support the debate and assisted dying (under the agreed circumstances)

I’m interested in the MN feedback here.

From today’s Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/jun/15/esther-rantzen-right-to-choose-a-good-death

Thank you Laurel. She makes a good case.

I was all for it until I watched the documentary presented by Liz Carr. It’s changed my mind completely.

I think that the awful state of medical care, nursing care and social care in England is somewhat dominating this particular MN discussion thread.

And to be fair, these interlinked care systems in England do currently sound so bad it’s frightening. And that’s linked to wider social and economic pressures and fears.

I can see how fear and suspicions of euthanasia therefore arise.

It's terribly wrong that the picture Liz Carr portrayed, of Assisted Dying as a very clear choice, and with all the safeguards to ensure NO coercion, was so so misleading. Mixing involuntary euthanasia with the above. It was clearly scare mongering on the elderly and the disabled, and totally misrepresentative of what Esther and others in the Dignity in Dying groups are proposing and want to be debated properly, at last.

I'm afraid it will become mandatory in our lifetime.

How can they make it 'mandatory' for someone to have a clear choice, with a clear request. Makes no sense at all.

How can they make it 'mandatory' for someone to have a clear choice, with a clear request. Makes no sense at all.

Umm... vaccines? All totally voluntary, we'll just bully and terrorize you enough to make the "correct" choice.
And don't get me started on abortions. All for "choice", never supposed to be just "convenience", yet here we are.

Absolutely NO comparison whatsoever!

What on earth are you on about?

I see the Guardian have gone full on campaign mode today with a raft of articles by prominent rich old people who want the right to die, but nothing in balance from those who oppose. It's disappointing really just how far from reality the Guardian has shifted under its current editorship.

Good for them. those prominent rich old people do currently have the choice, to spend 12.000to 15.000 Pounds to go to Switzerland. Good for them to want the choice to be extended to others who do not have access to such funds. And of course to want to be able to get help to die with dignity and in safety, in their own home, at a time of their choosing, and without their loved ones being at risk of prosecution- and not to have to travel to a foreign country, often too early to ensure they are strong enough to do so, and alone in order not to put loved ones at risk of prosecution.

I’d have thought rich old people wanting the choice would be applauded. There are enough people on MN who hate them.

Perhaps that is the reality, that the majority of people DO want the opportunity to end their lives at the time and in the manner of their choosing.

Why should a frightened old lady, with limited funds and on her own, have to suffer the pain, and often indignity, that many illnesses cause just because a few people find AD distasteful.

I understand that some people belong to a religion in which it may be considered a sin, punishable by eternal damnation, but many do not. Why do those who do not believe in the afterlife have to suffer in this one.

In veterinary medicine there are some operations that cannot be carried out unless they have been approved by an ethics committee. They must agree that the procedure is in the animal's best interest and has a good chance of success, otherwise the animal is put to sleep. If, and when, medical intervention cannot cure the illness and the patient is suffering, surely ending that suffering is the kindest and most humane course of action whoever the patient, animal or human.

With animals it is a matter for the owner, the vet and in some cases a committee to make the decision for the animal. For humans they can often make that decision for themselves and for those that can't then a similar ethics committee could. A similar thing happened at the height of COVID when decisions were made as to who should get the ventilators etc when there weren't enough to go round. Who made those decisions? Some of the people who died had a non-COVID condition and would ordinarily have survived if they had been put on a ventilator.

If someone has given instructions one way or the other then those must be carried out. All systems in any area of life are open to abuse but is that a good enough reason to deny those who want to end their life before that life becomes unbearable?

There will never be agreement on this subject and everyone will have to agree to disagree, but ultimately people should be given a choice. If it is not for you then that is fine and you can say that you want to suffer to the bitter end, but for those who don't they should have the chance to end their suffering.

Can you imagine having to take your most loved family dog, suffering abominable pain, to an airport, and take a plane to another airport, go and stay in a Hôtel for a couple of nights for tests and formalities, before taking yet another taxi to a clinic, to be gently pts?

No, I'm sure you can't. But it's ok for your mum or your beloved husband you've shared your life with for a lifetime- and begging to be delivered from his misery (or wife/father..). But that seems perfectly ok to some of you. And of course only for those with a spare 15.000. Oh I forgot, and not take them- but put them on a plane ... and let them do so on their own?

After watching my nana die from dementia I was 100% behind this but as posters have pointed out what’s happened in Canada is awful.

I have zero trust in government to not make the same decision. People have used assisted dying for drug addiction, depression, mental illness over sexual abuse.

All these people could have been helped to lead a successful life if they had proper care.

And it’s not beyond the reach for GP to suggest this if they feel they can’t help their patient anymore. When parents of children who had asthma were asked during covid would they want them resuscitated if they had covid - it shows the depth of what could potentially happen.

I don’t remember seeing that about asthmatic children during Covid. What I do remember was the anti lockdown brigade early on not giving a fuck if they passed it on to someone vulnerable with asthma, or when Brexit looked like it was going to cause asthma medication shortages some were saying it was an opportunity for the fittest to survive. It’s really easy for others to say assisted dying shouldn’t be allowed because it makes them uncomfortable because they don’t have to live with the consequences. Those of us who want this do, for years. I’ve spent 20 years watching both my parents deteriorate, I don’t have £15k, the only hope I have is that I am savvy enough to recognise any early symptoms and am physically able to finish myself off early, but it will be a nasty end and incredibly traumatic for my family, and likely much earlier than if AD was in place. I’d still rather they had memories of me as my normal healthy self, grieved, and went on with their lives than lost the next 25 years watching me deteriorate to a husk. And I am not a suicidal person, I bloody love life and I have been deeply affected by the suicide of someone close to me. But I know what’s worse and what is happening now is the absolute worst for both my parents and I and it feels never ending.

So sorry to hear about your nana. But dementia and Alzheimer's sufferers are NOT allowed to ask for assisted death in most countries, as you have to prove that you are fully compos mentis at the time of the request, and on the day, and have to self administer. Unless you do this at the very onset of the disease, and have made your wishes clear a long time before it starts.

The Canada model is extreme, and would never pass in the UK. And of course, would be very much part of any debate in both Houses.

Dementia absolutely should be considered because it is primarily what most of us dread and there is no cure. Plus palliative care is rarely offered to those dying with dementia, yet another way in which they are discriminated against.

This is very complex. And I agree with you, totally. But ... how do you prevent the slippery slope here? You have to show you are fully compos mentis at the time of request, and on the chosen day. And it should be back up but a long term, early and clear request, before the onset of the disease, as a bsic principle and wish. And then done very early after diagnosis, when there may be confusion about dates, what you ate yesterday or President or King's name- but absolutely clear about the clear wish to end life, as is the case, for instance, in Switzerland.

At this stage in the UK, we should only consider a new Law for assisted Dying for those with terminal disease, or multiple debilitating medical issues due to the ageing process, etc, AND FULLY COMPOS MENTIS.

What’s happening with this please?(yes, sorry lazy and haven’t read up myself).

@fungipie but that means you have to leave earlier than you’d like?

If I chose assisted death now- the moment I need a syringe driver or can’t recognise my daughter- isn’t that enough? I likely won’t be compus mentis at that time. I’ll be jaundiced, confused, weak- isn’t that enough suffering.

Are you diagnosed with a terminal illness RGLD?

My comment was about Dementia or Alzheimer's. In this case, yes, people in Switzerland, for instance, do have to make that choice early, too early, after diagnosis, for fear of waiting too late and 'miss their chance' My son has several relatives who waited too long, and then had to suffer to the bitter end, which they were adamant they did NOT want to.

With other terminal diseases, there are other ways to communicate than orally, for instance.

@fungipie No I’m not, but if I ever am I want out.
I totally agree with you, sorry for any offence/misunderstanding.

I’m sorry for your loss.

My father had cancer, he had a “high pain threshold” apparently. Pancreatic cancer- he was yellow and weighed 7 stone when the hospital finally diagnosed cancer. He was going regularly prior and they said “nothing sinister, just an ulcer”.
He came home, he passed away two weeks after. He didn’t have a clue who or where he was. The way he does haunts me. No fluids, nothing. He basically wasted away, starved to death, no water, no lip wetting (we hadn’t been told to). Didn’t know what to expect or what to do.

No offence and I am so sorry to had to witness, helpless, what happened to your poor father.

I am the same, if ever I am struck by a terrible disease, I will fight, like crazy, but only up to a point. And with Alzheimer's- I would choose to 'go' immediately, and not wait until it is too late. And it should be MY choice. With a son in Switzerland, I could go at his home as long as I am a registered resident at his address- as a UK member of EXIT. For £35 a year (approx), and all free.

We have all discussed this, and we all agree, and OH feels just the same. Advance preparation makes all the difference when it comes to choice.

Other boys could be there too, and just happen to be on holiday with their brother's family. And outside UK's jurisdiction - if ever.

I hope to be one of these truly lucky people who to to sleep and forget to wake up, when very old. But, none of us ever know how and when.