Assisted dying debate next week… To think this is a relief. So glad they’re finally debating this important issue.

[Mavenss]

We will be able to see which MPs are for or against assisted dying.

This Monday 29th April, assisted dying will be debated in Westminster for the first time in two years. An absolutely incredible 203,000 people added their name to the government petitionspearheaded by Dame Esther Rantzen to make this happen, creating the largest ever parliamentary petition on assisted dying.

There will not be a vote on Monday, but this debate will be the last time before the General Election that MPs have an opportunity to show you that they are listening to our calls for safe and compassionate choice at the end of life. A majority of voters in every constituency support an assisted dying law.

The debate starts at 4:30pmand you can watch it live online through the UK parliament website.

YABU- it’s a silly idea, why are government even debating it? Assisted dying is a terrible idea.

YANBU - I support the debate and assisted dying (under the agreed circumstances)

I’m interested in the MN feedback here.

Yes, but in countries where assisted dying has been legalised there has been an almost universal slide down into abuses where vulnerable people are coerced into it.

Coerced sex is rape, so why wouldn’t coerced death be murder?

It’s not really the same thing though is it?

Yes we are denying a privileged few a marginally better death, so that many vulnerable are not murdered.

The choice you want to die a better death will deny others their right to life.

Our position, saves lives, your position quote literally will cost innocent lives.

I’m 70 and I expect it to happen in my lifetime.

NO and more NO. One of my sons lives in Switzerland, and the safeguards are 100% foolproof. The CHOICE has to be 100% clear, without hesitation and with ensuring no coercion. This for about 70 years and without any slippery slope at all.

Really?
I disagree. The slippery slope is happening there too. Just slower because there is no legalised euthanasia. Keep in mind though that legalising assisted dying means legalising both assisted suicide AND euthanasia, so Switzerland is not the best comparator to what is being pushed for and debated in the U.K.

In 2006, Switzerland legalised it for mentally ill patients.
A recent case now means a Doctor doesn’t even need to read or get a psychiatric report prior to assisting a suicide of a person with a mental illness.

A death wish is a serious symptom of many mental illnesses and usually not the person’s true, sane choice.

But it’s cheaper than therapy! And disability benefits!

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/top-court-eases-burden-of-proof-for-assisted-suicide-for-mentally-ill/48635322

Cheaper than good palliative care too!
Once you legalise assisted dying, palliative care is underfunded and gets worse and worse and worse. Let’s encourage assisted dying (it’s more convenient for the living) by making palliative end of life care extra painful and shitty…no coercion there though? (Yeah right)
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/palliative-care-is-switzerland-a-good-place-for-the-terminally-ill/49092134

“According to an international study published in 2022 by researchers from Singapore and the United States, Switzerland ranks 13th out of 81 countries in terms of the best “quality of dying”. In first place is the United Kingdom, the country where palliative care originated.”

palliative care in the UK is massively relevant on charities and not Governement. Surely you know this.

My comment above talked about the safeguards for assisted dying- which have been proven to be very strong and safe for over 70 years.

Palliative care should be freely available to all, and not reliant on charities as in the UK. But even when it is excellent and available to all, IT IS NOT FOR ALL - some have the right to say I am tired and have had enough of pain and fighting, and want to choose how and when, and safely. It should never be either or.

legalising assisted dying means legalising both assisted suicide AND euthanasia, so Switzerland is not the best comparator to what is being pushed for and debated in the U.K.

But we could be like Switzerland. There’s no reason whatsoever why euthanasia should be on the table at all.

No, the safeguards are NOT strong when mentally ill patients can easily access assisted dying without the doctor approving it even bothering to get a psych report affirming the person has mental capacity.

The safeguards are NOT strong when those at end of life are given only one choice that isn’t torture and degradation because palliative care has not been funded properly.

The U.K. palliative care is in a BAD state…the Swiss palliative care is EVEN WORSE.

Look, if you had good palliative care where you’d have hardly any pain, would be kept clean and had a way to entertain yourself, have visitors, nice food, caring carers you are less likely to choose assisted dying than if the only palliative care on offer is in a hospice, and you are often left alone in a dark room in a soiled nappy, with infected bed sores, no visitors, no way to entertain yourself, no carers that treat you humanely.

The sort of palliative care available absolutely influences and if deliberately underfunded, coerces patients into assisted dying.

Most of the personal stories on the reasons why people want assisted dying revolve around avoiding bad palliative care that is more long term torture, degradation, dehumanisation while your relatives watch getting more and more distressed over your treatment and then death.

Great! Then join the campaign against assisted dying. Otherwise that’s what you are voting for.

Ffs. Why would I join a campaign against something I fervently want? 🙄

Most of the personal stories on the reasons why people want assisted dying revolve around avoiding bad palliative care that is more long term torture, degradation, dehumanisation while your relatives watch getting more and more distressed over your treatment and then death.

I think this needs stressing.

Also in terms of safeguarding, unless you take a hardline on this with regards to insisting on robust debate about possible abuses, rather than robotically saying 'well it works fine in x place', you increase the risk of inadequate safeguarding!

This is the problem with those trying to shut down discussion on this and using emotional blackmail to say that you are dying someone a death with dignity. Not wanting to engage with concerns and downplaying them makes issues more likely and won't produce a system that's free from abuse.

I take the line that I'd like the choice personally and for family members if that's what they wanted, but in practice I don't think it's viable because we aren't having the type of conversations we should over this and we are tone deaf to warnings. We aren't asking the right questions. We aren't applying the right pressure. Pressure and legislation and funding for better palliative care should come BEFORE pressure for assisted dying. Precisely for this reason.

If you aren't doing this, you illustrate my point about the entire problem.

You just said you did not want euthanasia? So is it you think that legalising assisted suicide is ok even at the cost of also legalising euthanasia and all the abuses that usually comes with? So, you get your death at any cost to other human beings? Even their lives?

I agree it needs to be discussed with all opinions heard and debated fully and for this not to become a political issue. Peoples concerns and fears need to be heard

I think it’s highly unlikely we shall not move towards legalising assisted dying in the next twenty years possibly ten years

This is an important read - a disabled person's view:

Silent Witness star on why Esther Rantzen is wrong about euthanasia and assisted suicide (msn.com)

I agree with every word she wrote.

I said I didn’t. It’s perfectly possible to have assisted dying without euthanasia. How do you think Dignitas works?

@BIossomtoes

This you?

@Blossomtoes
I thought it had been explained to you that assisted dying is defined as including both assisted suicide and euthanasia.

“Assisted dying is a general term that incorporates both physician-assisted dying and voluntary active euthanasia. Voluntary active euthanasia includes a physician (or third person) intentionally ending a person’s life normally through the administration of drugs, at that person’s voluntary and competent request”

If you only want the Dignitas model, then you want assisted suicide, not assisted dying.

This is worth a read - its a very very concerning trend - as PP have said - death is cheaper than funding palliative care of time intensive therapeutic treatments like those needed for personality disorder.

https://bpded.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40479-020-00131-9

Results
In six of the eight countries where EAS is currently legal, mental disorders are accepted as disorders for which EAS may be granted. In four of these countries, EAS in minors with mental disorders is also accepted. Our literature search resulted in 9 papers on the subject of EAS in people with personality disorders. These studies suggest that most clinicians who grant EAS have indeed perceived their patients’ suffering as chronic, unbearable and untreatable without prospect of improvement. The majority of patients with personality disorders had tried some form of psychotherapy, but very few had received any of the relevant evidence-based treatments. The decision to grant EAS based on a perception of the patient’s illness as being untreatable with no prospect of improvement, could, thus, in many cases fail to meet the due care criteria listed in EAS laws. People with personality disorders more often wish for death for extended periods of time than people without these disorders. However, there is ample empirical data to show that suicidal tendencies and behaviour can be treated and that they fluctuate rapidly over time.

Conclusions
In light of our findings, we believe that the current legislation and practice of EAS for people with personality disorders is based on an inadequate understanding of underlying psychopathology and a lack of awareness about the contemporary treatment literature. Moreover, we assert that this practice neglects the individual’s potential for having a life worth living.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/16/dutch-woman-euthanasia-approval-grounds-of-mental-suffering

this is where it goes. 29 year olds committing state sponsored suicide as a solution to care needs and mental health conditions. In a country with "safeguards" allegedly.

Thank goodness, Starmer is doing something if he gets in.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-pledge-assisted-dying-vote-b2511370.html

I believe end of life care should be improved. More hospices, more home nurses and doctors on call specifically for medication issues for the dying. I do no agree with assisted dying; it is wrong on so many levels and the thin edge of the wedge.

I see nobody has mentioned the documentary presented by actor Liz Carr, screened on BBC1 on Tuesday night at 9pm, "Better off dead?"

I urge everyone - especially those who still believe that 'safeguards' would prevent the "slippery slope" happening here - to watch it.

Her interview with a Canadian doctor who chuckled and gurned about how much she enjoyed her job (she's been involved in more than 400 assisted suicides) was chilling and Luz is heard to say as she leaves her office "Let's get out of here!"

It also features an interview with a Canadian man who was approved for assisted suicide when he became homeless - and his disability benefits wouldn't cover rent. He was still alive because of a fundraising campaign.

At last, things are moving towards the right to choose. And not having people shut down because they want that right.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/16/europe-slowly-shifting-attitudes-towards-assisted-dying