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Assisted dying debate next week… To think this is a relief. So glad they’re finally debating this important issue.

1000 replies

Mavenss · 26/04/2024 18:59

We will be able to see which MPs are for or against assisted dying.

This Monday 29th April, assisted dying will be debated in Westminster for the first time in two years. An absolutely incredible 203,000 people added their name to the government petitionspearheaded by Dame Esther Rantzen to make this happen, creating the largest ever parliamentary petition on assisted dying.

There will not be a vote on Monday, but this debate will be the last time before the General Election that MPs have an opportunity to show you that they are listening to our calls for safe and compassionate choice at the end of life. A majority of voters in every constituency support an assisted dying law.

The debate starts at 4:30pmand you can watch it live online through the UK parliament website.

YABU- it’s a silly idea, why are government even debating it? Assisted dying is a terrible idea.

YANBU - I support the debate and assisted dying (under the agreed circumstances)

I’m interested in the MN feedback here.

Petition: Hold a parliamentary vote on assisted dying

This petition calls for the Government to allocate Parliamentary time for assisted dying to be fully debated in the House of Commons and to give MPs a vote on the issue. Terminally ill people who are mentally sound and near the end of their lives shoul...

https://ca.engagingnetworks.app/page/email/click/2162/7065208?email=Rc3cp5aS0CkDfkUdrpdRoZmQCvNVYxKY&campid=9YL2yT2RiPe15xl1A%2FXc2A==

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
SummerFeverVenice · 03/05/2024 10:02

Deaths based on cultural abandonment but sold to the population under the false guise of freedom.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 03/05/2024 10:05

What part of “assisted dying for terminal illness” is so difficult to understand by some posters so they feel the need to resort to whataboutery on industrial scale here?

SummerFeverVenice · 03/05/2024 10:10

You see public polls say x don’t mean it is the ethically right thing to do. What is worrying is how many young people are in support of killing off the poor, old and disabled.

How is this not voting for eugenics?
https://unherd.com/newsroom/1-in-4-canadians-supports-euthanasia-on-grounds-of-poverty/

“But according to research by Research CO., a Canada-based public opinion researcher, over a quarter of the country would be content with a further loosening of the rules. Among Canadians, 27% believe that medical assistance in dying should be extended to people in poverty — a figure that rose to 41% among those aged 18-34 — while 28% agreed that assistance should be offered on the grounds of homelessness, 43% for mental illness, and 50% for being disabled.”

“Towards the end of last year, Canada’s MAID programme came under criticism for allegedly driving citizens into assisted suicide on the grounds of poverty or lack of healthcare. Stories included two separate cases of cash-strapped women suffering from chronic health conditions who successfully applied to end their lives. Elsewhere, four Canadian military veterans were allegedly “pressured” to opt for medically-assisted death by a now-suspended Veterans Affairs Canada caseworker.”

As a reminder- the assisted dying being debated in U.K. is to legalise the same types of assisted dying in Canada. It covers both assisted suicide and euthanasia
”Through the government’s MAID programme, which includes both assisted suicide (when providers give patients the means to end their own lives), and euthanasia (when a medical practitioner directly administers a patient’s lethal injection), medically assisted deaths have soared. “

One in four Canadians supports euthanasia on grounds of poverty

Over a quarter of Canadians believe that people should have access to euthanasia because of poverty, a new survey has found. Currently, Canada’s federal guidelines for medical assistance in dying include having a grievous and irremediable medical condi...

https://unherd.com/newsroom/1-in-4-canadians-supports-euthanasia-on-grounds-of-poverty/

BIossomtoes · 03/05/2024 10:12

So we have a version that doesn’t include euthanasia. Like Dignitas. Job done.

SummerFeverVenice · 03/05/2024 10:13

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 03/05/2024 10:05

What part of “assisted dying for terminal illness” is so difficult to understand by some posters so they feel the need to resort to whataboutery on industrial scale here?

There is no whataboutery at all.
Assisted dying (assisted suicide or euthanasia) for a terminal illness once legalised has ALWAYS been further expanded in those countries.

It is not whataboutery to point out this is knocking over the first Domino that will cause a chain reaction or that we are deluding ourselves if we think the U.K. will be so uniquely special it won’t happen here especially given our current government and public hatred towards the elderly, poor and disabled.

SummerFeverVenice · 03/05/2024 10:17

BIossomtoes · 03/05/2024 10:12

So we have a version that doesn’t include euthanasia. Like Dignitas. Job done.

It wouldn’t be Job done, there would be amendments proposed to repeatedly relax and expand the law.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 03/05/2024 10:18

it is actually. It’s the definition of it.

Yes, it will be for terminal illness at first, but what about what might happen later? This seems to be your argument.

BIossomtoes · 03/05/2024 10:20

SummerFeverVenice · 03/05/2024 10:17

It wouldn’t be Job done, there would be amendments proposed to repeatedly relax and expand the law.

Oh, you’ve got a crystal ball ~ can you tell me the Euro Millions numbers?

SummerFeverVenice · 03/05/2024 10:23

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 03/05/2024 10:18

it is actually. It’s the definition of it.

Yes, it will be for terminal illness at first, but what about what might happen later? This seems to be your argument.

Yes that is my facts based argument & the likelihood is higher than “might happen” it is “most probably will happen.”

SummerFeverVenice · 03/05/2024 10:24

BIossomtoes · 03/05/2024 10:20

Oh, you’ve got a crystal ball ~ can you tell me the Euro Millions numbers?

Oh, so we go from there must be lessons learned from other countries to pretending they don’t exist because it’s not what you want to hear and it is all a big unknown.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 03/05/2024 10:31

SummerFeverVenice · 03/05/2024 10:23

Yes that is my facts based argument & the likelihood is higher than “might happen” it is “most probably will happen.”

Might happen is an inkling at best.

You are presenting is a facts which is highly misleading.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 03/05/2024 10:40

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 03/05/2024 10:31

Might happen is an inkling at best.

You are presenting is a facts which is highly misleading.

With the current rhetoric about reducing care to the sick and vulnerable to save money, and the stories from Canada, I really don't think it's unreasonable to have valid concerns about where one piece if apparently reasonable legislation might lead in the future. It's a tricky, sensitive debate.

AderynBach · 03/05/2024 10:58

Thanks for your posts @SummerFeverVenice . They make for very distressing reading. The Canadian MAID regime truly shows how a society can sleepwalk into evil. Not what I expected from a country whose people are seen as nice, and polite to a fault. But maybe that's part of it.
I think Canada shows how extreme it can get, but every country with assisted suicide has expanded beyond terminal illness so I can't see any rational justification for believing we'll be any different.

PawPrintsInMyPansies · 03/05/2024 12:34

SummerFeverVenice · 03/05/2024 10:02

Deaths based on cultural abandonment but sold to the population under the false guise of freedom.

This!

Rinoachicken · 03/05/2024 12:34

AderynBach · 03/05/2024 10:58

Thanks for your posts @SummerFeverVenice . They make for very distressing reading. The Canadian MAID regime truly shows how a society can sleepwalk into evil. Not what I expected from a country whose people are seen as nice, and polite to a fault. But maybe that's part of it.
I think Canada shows how extreme it can get, but every country with assisted suicide has expanded beyond terminal illness so I can't see any rational justification for believing we'll be any different.

Edited

As @AderynBach said…

every country with assisted suicide has expanded beyond terminal illness so I can't see any rational justification for believing we'll be any different.

To just pretend like it won’t happen here - is just burying your head in the sand.

All those other countries confidently said at the time that it would only be for terminal illness, and yet the creep has happened and here we are.

What makes people so confident that the UK would be able to stand firm and be the exception where these other, equally developed, democratic, (dare I say civilised?) countries have failed??

thepastinsidethepresent · 03/05/2024 13:15

Haven't RTFT, but while I broadly agree this should be debated, quite honestly given the way I have heard some health practitioners speak to my elderly parents, I'm not confident that talking unwell elderly people into offing themselves, ostensibly to have a dignified end but in reality to save NHS resources, would 100% not be a thing.

That isn't meant to sound anti-NHS btw. I'm passionately in favour of it. But I don't think this scenario is completely outside the realms of possibility, sadly.

AderynBach · 03/05/2024 13:54

What makes people so confident that the UK would be able to stand firm and be the exception where these other, equally developed, democratic, (dare I say civilised?) countries have failed??

The truth is people pushing aggressively for this, on here and in wider society, know perfectly well the 'creep' will happen here too. They know but won't admit it, and they also won't admit that they don't particularly care. It's why the only counter-argument is the flimsy claim of 'safeguards' (which have failed everywhere) before reverting to some variation of 'you hate choice/you're being hyperbolic/you want people to suffer'. If there was a genuine attempt to reckon with this then we'd be having a different level of conversation but they want heat, not light.

iloveeverykindofcat · 04/05/2024 06:36

You know, the more I think about it, the more concerned I am about the effect this would have on the clinicians providing the fatal agent, whether or not they are physically administering it.

So cards on the table, I'm a sociologist in my day job. Work and Organization isn't my area, and its been many years since I did any in-depth reading on the subject, but whilst I don't believe that "power corrupts", I do believe, and its quite well-evidenced, that "dehumanizing systems dehumanize". And being in hospital is unavoidably dehumanizing to some degree, as your identity and role is reduced to "patient", or indeed, "bed number". You are there to be acted upon, not as an active subject. And I have to admit, I'm slightly suspect of people who choose to work in total institutions. I know: someone has to do it. But I bet if you tested all the people who choose to work in total institutions, their scores on the psychopathy scale would be higher than population average, and I bet those scores would rise with length of service (NB: this doesn't make them psychopaths).

RedToothBrush · 04/05/2024 10:14

BIossomtoes · 03/05/2024 10:20

Oh, you’ve got a crystal ball ~ can you tell me the Euro Millions numbers?

It's not just pot luck though.

It is possible to see political trends quite a long way ahead. Talk of leaving the EU was going on for years before there was a vote. The type of rhetoric that politicians were using was identifiable for years.

If we look at this thread and political trends and MN generally, we see a huge contempt for people living in certain circumstances as being to blame and it not being the state's responsibility to provide adequate health and support services. We all know how hard it is to get a CAHMS support for example - and that's children. It is even worse as an adult. These should be basic human rights.

Instead we are seeing a desire to remove human rights protections and to leave the ECHR. This would leave some very vulnerable people at risk.

It's not whatabboutery to discuss this. It's due diligence and standard process when law making. It's good practice to explore unintended consequences, possible 'misuse' of the law from it's intended purposes and long term possibilities of how the law might evolve in the future. This is the building blocks of all good law.

What we have seen in numerous areas in recent years is a blind spot by middle class well meaning people as to the practical implications of how society works for them compared to people living in more difficult circumstances. The gap and awareness has grown over the last twenty to thirty years as economic disparity has grown. There is this issue with there essentially being 'two Britains' which is well recognised by social observers and political strategist. The phrase 'the left behind' is one that's widely used and understood.

This has been deliberately manipulated for political gain too.

It would be not just incredibly foolish to ignore this but willfully negligent because government should have a duty of care to all citizens. If it's just saying well, the rights and protections of this group is an inconvenient barrier to allowing access to death for more privileged citizens who do have choices it's not good. The fact there are examples of emotional weaponisation of this dynamic to say we WANT this and it would be cruel not to versus the absolute RIGHT to life of all is worrying. One is a desire, the other is a need.

The problem remains that choices that those with stable lives and economic situations are an essence a luxury in the UK. They shouldn't be, but that's the reality. There are plenty of people for whom the concept of choice isn't relevant. It's about day to day survival.

I am not remotely surprised by some of the concerns in Canada. It's reflective of this pattern and it's economic profile. It's a much better indication of what is likely to happen here compared to other places where the gap between rich and poor is smaller and the state safety net is more robust.

For anyone who really isn't paying attention, I'll remind you that Reform polled incredibly well in Thursdays election. Don't be naive in thinking that people care about everyone in society.

Polling also shows poor attitudes to older people and the disabled.

We have a demographic timebomb gradually unfolding with concerns about how we can possibly provide adequate care and the pension budget is HALF of all benefits paid in the UK. That doesn't cover healthcare or social care either. The burden on working individuals at a time when AI is likely to reduce the number of jobs available is something that will drive attitudes.

I have to say I find it harder to believe that assisted dying will remain for those with terminal illness than it will soon face calls for expansion because the 'system is working'. And of course power lies with those in higher social classes. Theres plenty of form for not collecting data in order to argue that something is working in spite of concerns of conflict of interest and reports of harms by authority. That's how pretty much every scandal ends up originating. With concerns dismissed despite ample reason and suggestions that there is likely to be or is a problem.

I don't appreciate being told that ordinary standard debate of ideas that are going to be presented in the house of commons is somehow whatabboutery.

That's dishonest and manipulative.

And that in itself should be a red flag. Attempts to shut down public debate usually happen precisely because there is a real problem that people are trying to hide or play down. It's about an unwillingness to address valid concerns which are grounded in real life issues. One that they can't provide adequate safeguards for.

Don't get me wrong, I really do believe that it would be good for have assisted dying under very very limited circumstances. However I just do not believe that it would be workable in practice and I do think it would be far too open to abuse which would result in the deaths of a huge number of people for very different and avoidable circumstances which are totally unethical. That's too much of a cost to enable it. I think the UK is particularly vulnerable to these abuses because of the patterns and historic nature of our political discourse which is a sad thing to admit.

We are not learning from previous scandals and that's my ultimate problem. Instead we are seeking to double down insisting it couldn't happen here...

The arrogance of it is incredibly depressing.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 04/05/2024 10:23

RedToothBrush · 04/05/2024 10:14

It's not just pot luck though.

It is possible to see political trends quite a long way ahead. Talk of leaving the EU was going on for years before there was a vote. The type of rhetoric that politicians were using was identifiable for years.

If we look at this thread and political trends and MN generally, we see a huge contempt for people living in certain circumstances as being to blame and it not being the state's responsibility to provide adequate health and support services. We all know how hard it is to get a CAHMS support for example - and that's children. It is even worse as an adult. These should be basic human rights.

Instead we are seeing a desire to remove human rights protections and to leave the ECHR. This would leave some very vulnerable people at risk.

It's not whatabboutery to discuss this. It's due diligence and standard process when law making. It's good practice to explore unintended consequences, possible 'misuse' of the law from it's intended purposes and long term possibilities of how the law might evolve in the future. This is the building blocks of all good law.

What we have seen in numerous areas in recent years is a blind spot by middle class well meaning people as to the practical implications of how society works for them compared to people living in more difficult circumstances. The gap and awareness has grown over the last twenty to thirty years as economic disparity has grown. There is this issue with there essentially being 'two Britains' which is well recognised by social observers and political strategist. The phrase 'the left behind' is one that's widely used and understood.

This has been deliberately manipulated for political gain too.

It would be not just incredibly foolish to ignore this but willfully negligent because government should have a duty of care to all citizens. If it's just saying well, the rights and protections of this group is an inconvenient barrier to allowing access to death for more privileged citizens who do have choices it's not good. The fact there are examples of emotional weaponisation of this dynamic to say we WANT this and it would be cruel not to versus the absolute RIGHT to life of all is worrying. One is a desire, the other is a need.

The problem remains that choices that those with stable lives and economic situations are an essence a luxury in the UK. They shouldn't be, but that's the reality. There are plenty of people for whom the concept of choice isn't relevant. It's about day to day survival.

I am not remotely surprised by some of the concerns in Canada. It's reflective of this pattern and it's economic profile. It's a much better indication of what is likely to happen here compared to other places where the gap between rich and poor is smaller and the state safety net is more robust.

For anyone who really isn't paying attention, I'll remind you that Reform polled incredibly well in Thursdays election. Don't be naive in thinking that people care about everyone in society.

Polling also shows poor attitudes to older people and the disabled.

We have a demographic timebomb gradually unfolding with concerns about how we can possibly provide adequate care and the pension budget is HALF of all benefits paid in the UK. That doesn't cover healthcare or social care either. The burden on working individuals at a time when AI is likely to reduce the number of jobs available is something that will drive attitudes.

I have to say I find it harder to believe that assisted dying will remain for those with terminal illness than it will soon face calls for expansion because the 'system is working'. And of course power lies with those in higher social classes. Theres plenty of form for not collecting data in order to argue that something is working in spite of concerns of conflict of interest and reports of harms by authority. That's how pretty much every scandal ends up originating. With concerns dismissed despite ample reason and suggestions that there is likely to be or is a problem.

I don't appreciate being told that ordinary standard debate of ideas that are going to be presented in the house of commons is somehow whatabboutery.

That's dishonest and manipulative.

And that in itself should be a red flag. Attempts to shut down public debate usually happen precisely because there is a real problem that people are trying to hide or play down. It's about an unwillingness to address valid concerns which are grounded in real life issues. One that they can't provide adequate safeguards for.

Don't get me wrong, I really do believe that it would be good for have assisted dying under very very limited circumstances. However I just do not believe that it would be workable in practice and I do think it would be far too open to abuse which would result in the deaths of a huge number of people for very different and avoidable circumstances which are totally unethical. That's too much of a cost to enable it. I think the UK is particularly vulnerable to these abuses because of the patterns and historic nature of our political discourse which is a sad thing to admit.

We are not learning from previous scandals and that's my ultimate problem. Instead we are seeking to double down insisting it couldn't happen here...

The arrogance of it is incredibly depressing.

Perfectly put.

This is clearly not a simple one issue debate, no matter how much some would like it to be.

HRTQueen · 04/05/2024 10:32

I am glad it is being debated in parliament

I am a supporter of assisted dying

its a very emotive subject and I do not think anyone is wrong in their beliefs

I do think looking at the practicalities that all countries are facing of increased elderly population many more countries will have the option for people to take of assisted dying within 20 years

RedToothBrush · 04/05/2024 10:54

I think my biggest issue is how a fundamental right to die can coexist with a fundamental right to life in the context of the North Staffs Hospital scandal, the flights to Rwanda debate, political ambitions to leave the ECHRs, the Cass Review, the idea that NI was never considered by politicians advocating for Brexit, ongoing maternity scandals etc etc.

I just simply don't believe it's possible without completely undermining the right to life. And that has massive implications.

I would love to think differently but that's not the country we live in. Sadly.

thepastinsidethepresent · 04/05/2024 22:05

helpfulperson · 28/04/2024 10:55

I used to be a supporter and still am to a certain extent but I worry reading the opinions on MN on Elderly People and an underlying feeling they should shift over so the next generation can get the money and that elderly shouldn't be taking up medical resources etc. I can see the creep to people feeling they have to agree to it.

Sadly I can totally see this as well and I share your concern. There seems to be so much resentment of the elderly these days, sentiments such as 'they've had their time' etc etc. And you can just tell some healthcare practitioners are thinking it as well.

Hedgeoffressian · 04/05/2024 22:25

After seeing what’s happening in Canada it’s not something I would be happy with being introduced into the UK.

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