Assisted dying debate next week… To think this is a relief. So glad they’re finally debating this important issue.

[Mavenss]

We will be able to see which MPs are for or against assisted dying.

This Monday 29th April, assisted dying will be debated in Westminster for the first time in two years. An absolutely incredible 203,000 people added their name to the government petitionspearheaded by Dame Esther Rantzen to make this happen, creating the largest ever parliamentary petition on assisted dying.

There will not be a vote on Monday, but this debate will be the last time before the General Election that MPs have an opportunity to show you that they are listening to our calls for safe and compassionate choice at the end of life. A majority of voters in every constituency support an assisted dying law.

The debate starts at 4:30pmand you can watch it live online through the UK parliament website.

YABU- it’s a silly idea, why are government even debating it? Assisted dying is a terrible idea.

YANBU - I support the debate and assisted dying (under the agreed circumstances)

I’m interested in the MN feedback here.

When we abolished the death penalty it was because we realised executing even one innocent person meant we should not execute a single guilty, definitely deserves it violent criminal.

Funny posters wont even give the same consideration to the lives of disabled and elderly people that will likely be coerced into euthanasia that we have done to convicted murderers, child rapists, and serial killers that might on the off chance be innocent.

There is a complete disregard for the innocent lives that will be lost if this is legalised. This is a realistic outcome as every country that has legalised it has had abuses where innocent vulnerable persons have been killed. Even if only a handful, it is too many. No one has a right to die the way they want when that causes people to be killed that do not want to die.

The right to die means the end of a right to life unfortunately.

We need to reflect on that very carefully.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You’re describing the U.K. Gov attack on the mentally unwell and disabled and their hate speech about ‘fakers’ although it is worded more flowery as Sunak did “we are medicalising normal ups and downs of life,”

When you add in this environment plus assisted dying becoming legal you get eugenics. Sunak gets to build the country he is envisioning where work does everyone good and no one is off on the sick.

There could be a conveyor belt pushing the sick and disabled to soldier on until they can’t, whereupon they are taken a nice clinic and put to sleep.

My mother tried to commit suicide more than once when I was a teenager, because she suffered severe depression. After treatment- and because my father was finally persuaded we needed better housing - she eventually recovered and lived another 50 years. She lived a happy life, seeing her children succeed, caring for her grandchildren (which she once told me brought her "joy", despite being exhausting) and travelling abroad a number of times.

She died at 81 of cancer - and although her last months were painful and she was bedridden, she fought to live.

We need to be VERY careful in not seeing poor mental health and suicidality as permanent conditions.

@idreamoftoddlersleepytime · what makes you think I have no experience of disability?

We have different ideas on empathy. I empathise with the many people suffering pain that they wish to end, you wish to force them to continue in pain. Some countries and some American states have managed decent safeguards for the vulnerable.

@dimllaishebiaith Thought i had answered your question. I hardly ever quote posts, extends threads and I dont consider it necessary. I believe in freedom of choice and not only for those with sufficient resources to get to Dignitas.

The opponents of choice always resort to insults.

This is why I’m against assisted dying

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/may/01/case-for-assisted-dying-nhs-patients-die?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Where a condition is not treatable, and would only get worse. The person might be in horrific pain. They might have locked in syndrome. They might be doubly incontinent. They might have lost control of their limbs. They might not. It might be something else. There is no cure. They are mentally cognisant. Aware of everything.

They can’t be made ‘more comfortable’. They want to die. They want to die as peacefully as possible as close to home as possible. They don’t want to have to pay £15,000. Or worse, they don’t have that money to spend.

These people should have a choice of Assisted Dying. To keep them ‘alive’ in such conditions, when they want to die, is inhumane.

The only people who could possibly wish for them to carry on suffering - are people with no empathy at all. They’re profoundly selfish. Hard to hear but sadly, true.

@Mavenss the locked in trust estimate there are between 50-300 people with locked in syndrome in the UK (and I'm not sure you have the authority to speak for them). The Locked in Trust on the other end is a charity that actually supports these people and their families through fund raising to provide positive life experiences.

This is what their website says;

"We would help enable greater access to life experiences for example funding accessible holidays such as cruises and holiday parks around the world."

No where on their website are they asking for funding for euthanasia clinics.

It's interesting though that you've made up a fake emotional argument about people with locked in syndrome. Of course, assisted dying isn't an option for someone in that position is it as they are incapable of doing it themselves. It would have been an executioner delivering the lethal injection.

You really don't think through your positions at all do you? You make it up as you go along.

Interesting to see that other posters have noticed this debate running in tandem with current rhetoric around the cost of services and benefits for the disabled.

Call me a cynic, but it makes me very uneasy for the future.

🙄 you don’t know me or anything about me. I suggest you stop pretending you do.

@Mavenss I'm just responding in an open debate to the things you are saying. Your last substantive post was effectively advocating for euthanasia clinics for people with locked in syndrome. Unless you tell me that you have actual experience of locked in syndrome, which I would accept at face value, I'd say you are making it up as you go along, as you've no idea about the valuable quality of life someone could have. Or would you rather someone hanging around the hospital, perhaps with a medical qualification, shortly after it happens, with a leaflet promoting the options you favour?

@idreamoftoddlersleepytime 😊 I don’t need to answer to you and your combative tone. I’m not here to argue. Debate maybe but even that’s deteriorated into a slinging match. I am probably a bit guilty of that too.

@Mavenss I'm just examining the positions you put out. Interesting that you are unwilling to defend your support for euthanasia clinics for people with locked in syndrome. I suspect it's because you know it's nonsense but are not willing to admit this or walk back from your statement in support.

Ok you do know me! You got me!

In other words, you have no answer for why you've decided to throw another group of disabled people under the bus? Let me guess, there's 'no point' in discussing it with anyone who calls out the really disturbing thought processes you are exhibiting.

Sure

This. We absolutely cannot have assisted dying under the tories, they'll just see it as a money saver.

It would only a matter of time until the tories started offering vulnerable people a lump sum to leave to their families in exchange for dying.

And their cronies with the private companies ready to swoop and take the contracts.

We cannot have assisted dying in the country as it is.

Which is a shame because I am very
pro, in the right circumstances.

I empathise with the many people suffering pain that they wish to end, you wish to force them to continue in pain.

I know this was not directed at me specifically, but this is often said to those of us who oppose assisted dying. The truth is we don’t want to force anyone to continue in pain. We want better pain management, better palliative care, better mental health provision and support, more research into the medications and therapies that can give people relief.

I sometimes think that the pro side of the debate exploits the fears of those who have sat at deathbeds where their loved one received shockingly bad end of life care by promising that assisted dying ends all suffering and gives one a dignified death. I think there is an amount of false hope being offered that preys on the worst fears of the middle aged. We are all to some extent, afraid of death, and trying assure ourselves we can and will have a good death is one way to cope with it.

Assisted dying is essentially an intentional drug overdose and that way to die isn’t dignified imho as there are some inescapable undignified bits of death that can’t be made beautiful. Much like childbirth, our entry to and exit from this life is primal.

I sometimes think that the pro side of the debate exploits the fears of those who have sat at deathbeds where their loved one received shockingly bad end of life care by promising that assisted dying ends all suffering and gives one a dignified death. I think there is an amount of false hope being offered that preys on the worst fears of the middle aged. We are all to some extent, afraid of death, and trying assure ourselves we can and will have a good death is one way to cope with it.

I agree, and I think there are a couple of other notes coming through as well - disgust being a big one (incontinence is so often mentioned) and an assumption that loss of function = loss of value, loss of personhood. Loss of control (which is termed 'dignity' by pro posters) is the biggest fear. It's such a reduction of what dignity and value should mean. It's as if it's so unbearable to confront these things that the only thing to do is try to tidy it away. Dementia sufferers are completely dehumanised, in particular.

Yes the equally strong opinions being put forward that disabled people would just get a job if there were no benefits and the idea that the disabled people who are incapable of working such as those with locked in syndrom, the incontinent and those without control of their limbs (I presume paralysed?) would just be encouraged to kill themselves.

So work even if it makes you ill, or kill yourself, but either way there will be no state support.

It's pretty chilling when it's side by side like that

The concept of eugenics by stealth is becoming less stealthy by the day.

Ironically I do have skin in this game. My late DPs mother is bedbound incontinent non-verbal and on a liquid diet. 4 years ago she didn't recognise her son (only child, it contributed massively to his own health decline, looking back). I am now the sole POA. I don't visit. Her care home understands. On top of cumulative shit in my life following DPs untimely and unexpected death, it would break me.

She is being diligently kept alive yet arguably has no quality of life. She lived with us for 18 months until we couldn't keep her safe. In that time while she had awareness of her condition and impending demise, she begged to be released. And on other days came to pub, drank rose wine and had a nice time.

So I'm massively guilty and conflicted all round on the issue overall.

BUT - it is a potential slippery slope situation especially in the current political and economic and ideological climate. And where do lines get drawn? That is the problem.

As I said upthread radical changes will happen within the next few years.

1. Council tax bandings. Bands were set based on house prices in 1991, obviously this will be looked at in the next few years as councils need more money. It will be easier for the treasury (rather than give more money) to go for a more recent valuation so that councils can access some of that unearned wealth sitting out there.
2. After that savings and assets thresholds will come down, many people will support this because why should people get benefits if they have £10,000 in savings?
3. Deprivation of asset laws will be tightened up (obviously not for the rich) The current law is quite woolly so giving councils the opportunity to deny care will become more attractive.
4. UK debt is currently about 100% of GDP, financially the Tories have screwed the country so any government for the next 20 years won't be able to afford to put close to enough money into improving services.
5. Cost shouldn't be an issue but it is and will become a greater issue in coming years. Expensive drugs and therapies will only be available to those who have taken out insurance. People will suffer and being given a choice a lot of people will take it for many various reasons.

I'd like to have that choice when I get there rather than rotting away in some nightingale style care home with a 1:30 ratio. I'm not saying it's right but it is inevitable.

@titbumwillypoo if you want to be taken seriously, change your user name to something that isn't so childish.