Labour pledges to re-nationalise railways - Is it time for utilities too?

[Startingagainandagain]

I am glad to see that Starmer is finally announcing some more radical policies and this is a positive step as far as I am concerned.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/renationalise-railways-labour-election-starmer-b2534505.html

I would like to see water, gas and electricity to be brought back into public ownership too, considering the profiteering, lack of investment and the sewage scandals that privatisation gave use.

I am old enough to remember the times before privatisation and I think that a big part of the cost of living crisis comes from private companies trying to squeeze as much profit out of us.

Also with climate change I think we also need to bring natural resources into public ownership.

Also with climate change I think we also need to bring natural resources into public ownership.

The utility companies generally don’t own natural resources. They generate power using purchased gas etc. and looking forward, with renewables it’s less of an issue because you can’t “own” the wind- you can only own the windy land to stick a turbine on and it’s not realistic for the government to buy all that up. However, It is likely that generation will become much more fragmented in the next 2 decades just because renewables facilitates it, so there will be less of an oligopoly. Depending on grid infrastructure you’ll either see the emergence of “prosumers” or mini grids.

No, it's owned by a variety of pension funds, most of them overseas, and a smattering of investment funds, also overseas. The real damage was done by an Australian bank who ran up $18Bn of debt on Thames water, while paying themselves dividends that were hundreds of times the profits (funded by the debt). Then did a runner. Basically, legalised money laundering.

I honestly find it hard to believe that British Rail was worse than the train services now. In what way?

One of the best things about this proposal is the requirement to offer the best price ticket as standard. It's bloody exhausting always having to be hyper vigilant in making sure you're not paying over the odds

I'd prefer they started with water. At least with trains in some cases we have a choice of operator and route. I have no choice but to pay those bastards at Thames Water who have shamefully destroyed our rivers and coastal waters while paying out dividends to shareholders.

The government put in more money around the time of privatisation to make it appear to customers that trains were better run under privatised companies.

As I moved from being a student to working I learn this was a complete lie. Especially as I had to deal with franchises run by the bus companies e.g. Stagecoach.

The reason they are focussing on the train service is because its an issue that is close to the heart of the traditionally Tory-voting home counties, whose votes are now up for grabs and who have lots of council seats and police commissioner posts coming up for election in May. Places like Surrey Heath, and Epsom which have been safe Tory seats forever are up for grabs and train service and (especially) Thames Water, are target-rich battlegrounds for Labour and the Lib Dems.

Welsh Water is not for profit and Transport for Wales is fully owned by Welsh Government… that said chronic under investment in the past has led to the problems of today and neither are perfect. For example if Welsh Water were to rebuild the wastewater network from scratch it would cost £30bn.

I am happier that Welsh Water do not have shareholders to worry about and are required to invest back in the business, services and customer bills. Also they only take £27 a month from me which is very reasonable.

TfW a slightly different kettle of fish, again chronic under investment and past line closures have led to an antiquated, patchy service. At least they are quick to pay out compensation, in December 2022 and January 2023 I made six trips from the capital to the west and ended up not having to pay for a penny as the service was so terrible!

As with lots of things in Wales, the idea is sound, the execution… isn’t.

Much like the creation of the NHS the government would be put into a compromise situation as the technical skills and even understanding of the regulations involved is very much in the hands of private companies and individuals, that's just installation, design and maintenance. Ignoring preexisting contracts and infrastructure ownership. Even where some railway employees are FOR privatisation (as some were of the NHS' creation) it doesn't mean that various organisations would have any interest in negotiating on that

I honestly find it hard to believe that British Rail was worse than the train services now. In what way?

My recollection. Very old rolling stock, dirty trains, cancellations were frequent, as was strike action.

Labour are not committing to reducing prices either just simplifying. So I expect we will see very little difference

@Sarahconnor1

"My recollection. Very old rolling stock, dirty trains, cancellations were frequent, as was strike action.''

Sounds like what we have now anyway...

I am on the Kent coast and I use South Eastern and the service is a nightmare.

We are supposed to be have fast, direct trains to our town but they keep cancelling them throughout the day so instead I have to use two different trains back from London but I am still charged for a fast train ticket...

We have had several strikes this year.

I don't remember British Rail being any worse.

Sarahconnor1 · Today 12:56

Anyone who remembers British rail won't be over excited about nationalised rail.

When Stagecoach walked away from the East Coast Mainline, fares went down and reliability and passenger satisfaction went up. It also returned £600 million to the Treasury, rather than having to be subsidised.

British Rail was run into the ground, with poor financing, probably in order to get the public onside for privatisation.

Yes i agree, which is why i said I expect we will see very little difference.

I'd much prefer them to start with utilities - the big companies are raking in mega profits whilst pensioners and the poor can't afford to put the heating on.

I'm not fussed about trains - since Dr Beeching closed all the railway stations in my area I'm not sure if I have ever used one. It's irrelevant to me who is running them.

Gas and electric are no where near as regulated and have been allowed to make huge profits.
But anyone who understands the water industry knows nationalisation won't help.

Standards have improved massively since privatisation.....anything happening now was significantly worse back then (with the exception of weather and climate issues)
The government regultors have (between them) made ot difficult for companies to invest in making things better than they are....because they reckoned customers didn't want to pay for environmental improvements.

Shareholder profits look huge I know....but without them companies wouldn't be able to raise credit to spend lump sums on improvements so unless the government is going to start funding those things investment and improvement will stall under privatisation....and you will have one government department regulating another and marking their own homework.

Utilities don't make mega profits though. You are confusing generators with providers. Gas and electricity are traded commodities, over which governments have little control.

Water is not privatised in Scotland and I pay £168 for water and £195 for wastewater a year as an added charge to my council tax bill.

It's no use having nationalised industry if we're always electing Tory governments. They don't look after them and hate spending on public services.

But privatised industry is a disaster because prices skyrocket energy bills, train fares) but the customer is no better off.

I do not understand how it was possible for the basic utilities (gas/electricity/water) to be sold off to private companies that were not British or at least to maintain a majority stake in these industries. It saddens me that the basic rights were sold out for profit.
I would like to see state control of social housing, gas, electricity, water, NHS, nurseries and schools at a minimum. These things are not for profit. It is half the reason why so many people are finding it so hard to live on the NMW. The people we put our trust in to run the country on our behalf have completely failed but are reaping none of the consequences.

British Rail was run down because governments didn't invest in them (mostly Tory but some Labour as well). Problem is from the 60s the motorcar was kind and rail travel was viewed as obsolete. We had the Beeching cuts in the 60s - to help accelerate motorways - and Thatcher didn't care for trains either and then Major privatised them.

Difference was though it was far more affordable and you were more likely to get a seat. It's a bit like going to watch football in the 70s and 80s - the grounds were run down and needed investment, but at least it was cheap to get in and you could walk up on the day and get a ticket.

Privatised companies don't invest either - it's all about profit and dividends. The train companies make money off high fares but it's the taxpayer who has to pay for the big projects like HS2.

Not sure what difference it would make. The government control the trains now anyway and most trains are run by the private operating firms under contract/licence these days. Govt quangos control timetables, routes, pricing, maintenance, new building projects etc.

Labour would still have to "contract out" the operation of the railways to operating companies, just like today, they're hardly likely to suddenly directly employ a few thousand drivers, guards, station staff, maintenance workers, cleaners, etc., are they?

The illusion of privatisation was all about getting finance for all the new trains that were needed due to health & safety, disability discrimination, emissions, etc., that would have probably bankrupted the country had the taxpayer had to pay or had they been bought directly under something similar to PFI! In the 90s, virtually every coach needed replacement and modern ones cost millions per coach.

Labour would still have to "contract out" the operation of the railways to operating companies, just like today, they're hardly likely to suddenly directly employ a few thousand drivers, guards, station staff, maintenance workers, cleaners, etc., are they?

Labour's intention is for a new arm's length body, Great British Railways (GBR), to take over service contracts as they expire.

GBR would operate services and set timetables. The only way to do that would be for GBR to directly employ those doing the work of operating services.

That's what Transport for Wales Rail does - it's a subsidiary of Transport for Wales, a company owned by the Welsh Government.

Some of the railways (or provision of them) will revert to public ownership. Won't solve all the issues but may stop things getting worse.

As for utilities, start with larger water companies. Not fussed so much about the others.

The unions run the railways, or hadn't you heard?

Re-nationalising energy would be a financial cluster fuck of epic proportions because only a small amount of the assets/companies are actually British owned (from memory only British Gas, OVO and Octopus). These are the only ones that the government can literally seize with minor implications. The rest are owned by a variety of international companies, some actually state owned by foreign governments either in part or wholly. Seizing those would cause massive international relations issues and I wouldn't be surprised if trade embargoes were placed on the UK in retaliation.

Then there's the question of how far to go...do you just target the suppliers, or do you include upstream activity and assets (generating electricity, providing gas), do you also include the national grid infrastructure and gas network infrastructure?

That's four entirely different industries, all with their own specific regulatory obligations and costs. The upstream businesses are the most profitable - but would also be the most expensive to buy out. We're talking absolute billions - no one is going to just hand over power stations, wind farms and nuclear power stations.

The government showed it's competence in the energy field with Bulb when they were forced to run that for a while, it cost us £3billion as tax payers. That's just one, medium sized company.

The energy industry has moved on too far since the 90s to be able to roll back ownership to the state. It should never have been broken up in the first place. Too late to bolt the barn door now the horse has firmly bolted to another country

Of course they should be.

What a corrupt moral compass a country must have to run ESSENTIAL services for profit !

I want water, electricity, gas, heating oil all forms of public transport and communications owned by the state FOR the people , not for the pockets of shareholders. Instead of paying out millions in dividends- it can be reinvested.

Not everything needs to be run for ever increasing profits. Sometimes they just need to be run for the public good.