To be frightened about the Government’s plans for benefits reform?

[PilgorTheGoat]

I am one of the millions of people currently on long term sickness benefits. I receive the LCWRA element of UC and PIP due to poor mental health and autism. I have severe anxiety and depression and I am awaiting an appointment to see if I also have PTSD due to sexual abuse in my childhood.

I have tried every element of support offered to me. I’m maxed out on 2 different types of antidepressants. I have had back-to-back (excluding the 6 month wait in between) 12 week sessions of counselling offered via the NHS. I am on a waiting list for intensive CBT due to my possible PTSD. I am currently having twice weekly private, video counselling appointments.

I can’t leave my house alone due to panic attacks. I struggle to meet my own care needs and my husband has to do a lot of the work for us both (although he works full time). I have a very understanding friend whom I force myself to go for a short walk with twice a week in order to stop myself becoming completely imprisoned at home but I find this very distressing and we have to take the same route each time.

I am so, so scared about the government’s plans to end sickness benefits for people like me. We don’t have a load of spare cash, we’re just about getting by. There is no support available. I’ve taken everything offered and my husband has been very proactive in seeking out other services for me to be involved with. I’d love to be better, I’d love not to live in fear but there is no help.

He pointed out the long waiting lists and ‘a lazy Government ‘to great applause.
Of course he would be sensationalist with a lazy Government comment he’s the shadow health secretary.
He didn’t say much in terms of your comment except
Yes!
The waiting lists for everything are an absolute disgrace!
But We need more staff and more resources and to fund that more money!

He didn’t give anything meaningful or realistic in terms of how that was going to come about.

We need realistic proposals from Labour! At the moment there’s nothing but sucking up to the worried and the standard Labour voters.

I think part of the problem, particularly with mental health issues like anxiety and depression, is that they aren't categories, they are on a continuum. Everyone has these things to some degree and it's far from straightforward to decide at what point they are pathological and sufficient to exempt someone from work.

When you have enormous numbers of people claiming to have these disorders, I think it's only natural that people will start questioning the point at which these things are considered abnormal. Of course we have the DSM and other attempts to cluster symptoms into disorders, but still, it is subjective to a large degree and often dependent on self report.

I don't think anyone would argue that people with severe mental health problems should be forced to work, but I think there are problems in establishing the point at which mental health issues are classed as severe.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. The cuts to disability benefits are ideologically driven. If the government really wanted to support disabled people properly it would be looking at every other option before cutting their benefits. As things stand, the disabled are the low hanging fruit and as such, the first to be targeted.

This thread is really depressing. It demonstrates a lack of critical thinking and a blind acceptance of the ‘facts’ as stated by a government who have a vested interest in casting doubt on the credibility of disability benefit claimants and painting even severely disabled people as unworthy, because it reduces opposition to savage cuts when they come. I suppose that’s only a viewpoint you can understand if you’re actually disabled and have repeatedly been at the shitty end of the cuts.

I find this statement so unfair towards all the GP! Why on earth GP will "dish out sick notes"? Why on earth after studying for years to become a GP any GP will risk their licence and job for some patients they aren't even close in real life? Is someone questioning the GP professionalism? Why anyone will think that there's even one GP who will approve a long term sick note if they aren't sure that the patient really has health issues?

P.S. I'm not a GP and not related to any NHS staff. I think it's unfair to make this kind of statements towards any kind of professional jobs. I'm sure most of us try their best at their jobs. Being told on national TV that someone is not knowledgeable in their jobs, especially by someone who has no qualifications in the field is totally unfair and it will hurt any person's feelings. Especially if you studied and practiced for years to get the job.

Doctors diagnose illnesses based upon symptoms.

If you go to your doctor and tell him/her that you have the following symptoms, you will be diagnosed with depression.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/depression-in-adults/symptoms/

The psychological symptoms of depression include:

• continuous low mood or sadness
• feeling hopeless and helpless
• having low self-esteem
• feeling tearful
• feeling guilt-ridden
• feeling irritable and intolerant of others
• having no motivation or interest in things
• finding it difficult to make decisions
• not getting any enjoyment out of life
• feeling anxious or worried
• having suicidal thoughts or thoughts of harming yourself

Yes this is exactly how they will need to do it by cross party, both parties will say the same things and who will people vote for then.

Which bloated corporations? Or is that just a soundbite? And as I keep repeating, if simply doing away with the tories and thus their dodgy contracts would save THAT much money, why are Labour so worried about the fiscal landscape and talking about tough decisions and scrapping policies?

Anybody???????

Crickets, once again

When it comes to benefits the point at which mental health issues are classed as severe is clear cut. As has been repeated several times, those people who have secondary line, consultant led care and can establish a history of mental illness or other organic conditions, including learning disabilities and sensory impairments, are the only claimants likely to be successful. Primary care led mental health treatment for conditions like anxiety and depression in the main don’t qualify unless it can be demonstrated that the condition is severe. The PIP eligibility criteria for both mental and physical health conditions are readily available online and one look at them should be enough to convince doubters that the bar is set very high for both, but for mental health conditions in particular, eligibility is very difficult to satisfy.

And? I mean might these things be debilitating or not? What is your point?

I don’t understand the point of this either. It’s been explained to the point of exhaustion that GP led treatment for anxiety and depression doesn’t qualify for PIP, and the work capability assessment takes a similar view with those claiming for sickness based benefits. Unless you have a provable, diagnosed condition with medical evidence from secondary care to support it, the claim is unlikely to be successful.

I think a big part of the problem here is the inability to distinguish between sickness benefits and disability benefits. Despite similar explanations of the difference throughout the thread. This particular poster seems to spend a lot of time googling to try to support their own narrative.

Yes but you would not be referred to secondary psychiatry for that and it's secondary psychiatry that PIP want to see evidence from.

I was explaining why doctors write such notes to @WiseKhakiGoose who questioned why they might risk their jobs for the workshy.

The reality is that even if the doctor thinks a patient is lying about suicidal thoughts, they can't realistically call the patient's bluff, can they? If they were wrong and the patient killed themselves, they'd be in a world of shit.

Whereas, there are zero repercussions for diagnosing a liar with depression.

Exactly. Spot on. Work capability assessment is the same. Generally anxiety and depression don’t attract long term sickness benefits unless they’re backed up with evidence to suggest they are severe. And the bar is set very high for that.

Given the only way to prove someone is lying about suicidal thoughts is whether or not they kill themselves I'm still baffled by your point?

So how do you explain the number of assessment reports for both PIP and the work capability assessment which dismiss suicidal thoughts out of hand if there isn’t sufficient evidence to back them up (for PIP and WCA that includes evidence of previous suicide attempts, or previous referrals to mental health services, which would be warranted in such cases) and recommends shorter term benefit awards so that the claimant can engage with work related activity ? A doctor may be able to write a sick note to initially sign someone off - it’s a whole different ballgame when it comes to assessment for out of work and disability benefits.

If a mental health condition has to be severe before they receive PIP does that mean
for example
They can’t look after their kids, do the shopping, go on holiday etc etc. ie Normal life stuff
If they can, however, achieve these things without the help of another person for all ( or most ) of these things would they not be classed as severe.

( The same goes for other conditions too, but I appreciate this thread is about mental health issues )

It’s yet another convoluted attempt to support the narrative that mental health conditions can’t be proved or disproved. So, ladies and gentlemen, all psychiatrists and psychologists, as well as mental health counsellors can stand down. @ThisOldThang has solved mental illness for you. It doesn’t exist !!

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/10/coroner-criticises-benefits-rules-after-vulnerable-claimants-death?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17141349197888&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fsociety%2F2024%2Fmar%2F10%2Fcoroner-criticises-benefits-rules-after-vulnerable-claimants-death

Just one example of what the system does to mental health patients. A quick Google suggests "scores" and other sources suggest much higher numbers. But those in favour of eugenics by stealth will no doubt shrug.

Trying to consider both sides here and to be fare on all
@ThisOldThang was just referring to sick notes and doctors on threads in the past here on MN have said they just don’t have the time themselves to do full assessments so in the first instance will give a sick note.

@ThisOldThang wasnt referring in this post to the next stage ie applying for PIP which obviously needs evidence.

These ridiculous misrepresentations of the things I've written are certainly starting to make me wonder whether those people misrepresenting things are fraudulent.

Fraudulent claimants? What, everyone? I’m not on benefits

Is there no low to which you will not stoop ?

On the subject of suicides it’s worth looking at Wyoming which until recently had the highest number of suicides in the US.

They set up an urgent care mental health clinic, open 24/7 no appointment needed.
Thats the sort of facility we need here, up and down the country. No referrals nothing just drop in and get help from professionals immediately.

It would seem not

No, PIP doesn’t assess those things. They may well not be able to do them but it doesn’t assess for them. The assessment looks at the levels of difficulty with everyday activities linked to personal care and mobility. For daily living it looks at the ability to wash/bathe and dress yourself, toileting/incontinence, preparing and cooking food, how you handle money, level of physical mobility - that kind of thing. For mental health conditions the assessment looks at a persons’ motivation, mood and levels of distress/overwhelming inability to cope whilst carrying out the activities.