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To be frightened about the Government’s plans for benefits reform?

1000 replies

PilgorTheGoat · 21/04/2024 11:39

I am one of the millions of people currently on long term sickness benefits. I receive the LCWRA element of UC and PIP due to poor mental health and autism. I have severe anxiety and depression and I am awaiting an appointment to see if I also have PTSD due to sexual abuse in my childhood.

I have tried every element of support offered to me. I’m maxed out on 2 different types of antidepressants. I have had back-to-back (excluding the 6 month wait in between) 12 week sessions of counselling offered via the NHS. I am on a waiting list for intensive CBT due to my possible PTSD. I am currently having twice weekly private, video counselling appointments.

I can’t leave my house alone due to panic attacks. I struggle to meet my own care needs and my husband has to do a lot of the work for us both (although he works full time). I have a very understanding friend whom I force myself to go for a short walk with twice a week in order to stop myself becoming completely imprisoned at home but I find this very distressing and we have to take the same route each time.

I am so, so scared about the government’s plans to end sickness benefits for people like me. We don’t have a load of spare cash, we’re just about getting by. There is no support available. I’ve taken everything offered and my husband has been very proactive in seeking out other services for me to be involved with. I’d love to be better, I’d love not to live in fear but there is no help.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Kandalama · 26/04/2024 01:16

Thelnebriati · 26/04/2024 00:21

ThisOldThang
And what medical evidence is there for anxiety except somebody telling their doctor they suffer from anxiety?

Pulse, heart rate, blood pressure, how much you are sweating. You won't get PIP by telling your GP you are anxious.
Anxiety is often a symptom of illness including heart disease, thyroid problems and diabetes, so they should order tests to rule out a physical cause.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6526963

The rates of heart disease, diabetes etc alongside anxiety aren’t ‘often’ the case. Often would mean generally more than half or at least 30%, but these are well below at 8/10%. So can’t be currently used realistically as markers.

MidnightMeltdown · 26/04/2024 03:20

Toastandbutterand · 21/04/2024 20:02

Some people are gonna be shitting bricks when all the disabled are the ones looking after their kids, their parents, their admin, the call centres 🤣 making their food, boxing the hello fresh.

Ya know, those minimum wage easy jobs 🤣

What jobs exactly do you think these people can do?

I hope you're ok OP. You shouldn't have to work if you can't.

I coordinate benefits and care for a girl who was human trafficked. Quite why anyone would want a highly stressed, petrified of men, very vulnerable girl to serve them is beyond me. And she's not told anyone apart from her carers why she doesn't work. I don't doubt she has many neighbours judging her.

It really won't end well for anyone.

Of course not everyone with a disability can work, but I believe that many could if found the right role.

When I was a student I worked part time at Tesco and they had a special programme (not sure whether it was nationwide or only at that store) where they made the effort to employ people with learning disabilities and find them appropriate roles - so yes, disabled people may well be preparing your food! I believe that it really benefitted them and gave them a purpose in life.

I also find it bizarre that some people on this thread think that someone couldn't possibly work simply because they are in a wheelchair. I have worked in large offices and have had colleagues in wheelchairs. Of course, not everyone in a wheelchair can work, but implying that someone can't work simply because they are in a wheelchair is ridiculous. People can and do.

blue345 · 26/04/2024 06:35

I don't think many economists would disagree that our current spending is unsustainable given the public debt and an ageing population.

So, putting it another way, would you rather all disability benefit claimants had their benefits reduced by, say, 20% or the government ran a process to identify the 20% that didn't need it? These are the types of decisions that will have to be made. They're not easy but sadly they're necessary.

I can see the triple lock going the same way, it will be a trade off between ditching the triple lock or pushing the state retirement age back yet again. And before the uncaring comments start again, I've been disabled since I was 7 so I know something about walking in those shoes.

ThisOldThang · 26/04/2024 06:42

"I can see the triple lock going the same way, it will be a trade off between ditching the triple lock or pushing the state retirement age back yet again."

I think it's clear that compulsory pension contributions are a precursor to ending the state pension. Once those people, that became adults the year it was introduced, reach retirement age, they'll stop the state pension entirely.

I presume pension credit will continue for those without enough pension provision, if it is affordable - but that's a big 'if' given the exponential growth of benefits costs.

user1477391263 · 26/04/2024 07:03

blue345 · 26/04/2024 06:35

I don't think many economists would disagree that our current spending is unsustainable given the public debt and an ageing population.

So, putting it another way, would you rather all disability benefit claimants had their benefits reduced by, say, 20% or the government ran a process to identify the 20% that didn't need it? These are the types of decisions that will have to be made. They're not easy but sadly they're necessary.

I can see the triple lock going the same way, it will be a trade off between ditching the triple lock or pushing the state retirement age back yet again. And before the uncaring comments start again, I've been disabled since I was 7 so I know something about walking in those shoes.

This.

qwertyqwertyqwertyqwerty · 26/04/2024 07:19

ThisOldThang · 26/04/2024 06:42

"I can see the triple lock going the same way, it will be a trade off between ditching the triple lock or pushing the state retirement age back yet again."

I think it's clear that compulsory pension contributions are a precursor to ending the state pension. Once those people, that became adults the year it was introduced, reach retirement age, they'll stop the state pension entirely.

I presume pension credit will continue for those without enough pension provision, if it is affordable - but that's a big 'if' given the exponential growth of benefits costs.

It will not be politically viable to end state pensions without an almost full career lead time surely, who would vote for the party that proposes this?

qwertyqwertyqwertyqwerty · 26/04/2024 07:20

blue345 · 26/04/2024 06:35

I don't think many economists would disagree that our current spending is unsustainable given the public debt and an ageing population.

So, putting it another way, would you rather all disability benefit claimants had their benefits reduced by, say, 20% or the government ran a process to identify the 20% that didn't need it? These are the types of decisions that will have to be made. They're not easy but sadly they're necessary.

I can see the triple lock going the same way, it will be a trade off between ditching the triple lock or pushing the state retirement age back yet again. And before the uncaring comments start again, I've been disabled since I was 7 so I know something about walking in those shoes.

The answer is not further cuts, that's just a death spiral.

ThisOldThang · 26/04/2024 07:22

Agreed.

That's why i wrote "Once those people, that became adults the year it was introduced, reach retirement age, they'll stop the state pension entirely."

blue345 · 26/04/2024 07:27

The answer is not further cuts, that's just a death spiral.

You can't keep spending if you can't afford it.

I was writing about GDP for work this week (thrilling I know) and the forecasts for the U.K. and Europe are pretty much flat and a couple of percent for the US.

Growth isn't going to be the panacea so you either cut public spending or raise taxes (which are already a disincentive at certain cliff edges). Otherwise the death spiral will be in our public finances, which are already heading that way.

LiquoriceAllsort2 · 26/04/2024 07:28

qwertyqwertyqwertyqwerty · 26/04/2024 07:19

It will not be politically viable to end state pensions without an almost full career lead time surely, who would vote for the party that proposes this?

Will these decisions just be done with cross party support? If both parties put it in their manifesto then voters would have no choice.

I think you can tell all in government knows things are needing to be done when labour ate saying they will not reverse many policies that the Tories are proposing. Even labour are hinting not to expect the spending taps to be turned on and that is before an election.

TigerRag · 26/04/2024 07:42

blue345 · 26/04/2024 06:35

I don't think many economists would disagree that our current spending is unsustainable given the public debt and an ageing population.

So, putting it another way, would you rather all disability benefit claimants had their benefits reduced by, say, 20% or the government ran a process to identify the 20% that didn't need it? These are the types of decisions that will have to be made. They're not easy but sadly they're necessary.

I can see the triple lock going the same way, it will be a trade off between ditching the triple lock or pushing the state retirement age back yet again. And before the uncaring comments start again, I've been disabled since I was 7 so I know something about walking in those shoes.

We could save money by getting rid of the face to face and the constant wrong decisions.

Why are we not looking at why so many go to appeal and win?

Rosscameasdoody · 26/04/2024 08:09

MidnightMeltdown · 26/04/2024 03:20

Of course not everyone with a disability can work, but I believe that many could if found the right role.

When I was a student I worked part time at Tesco and they had a special programme (not sure whether it was nationwide or only at that store) where they made the effort to employ people with learning disabilities and find them appropriate roles - so yes, disabled people may well be preparing your food! I believe that it really benefitted them and gave them a purpose in life.

I also find it bizarre that some people on this thread think that someone couldn't possibly work simply because they are in a wheelchair. I have worked in large offices and have had colleagues in wheelchairs. Of course, not everyone in a wheelchair can work, but implying that someone can't work simply because they are in a wheelchair is ridiculous. People can and do.

People in wheelchairs are not generally exempted from job search just because they can’t walk, so I don’t know why that’s even being suggested. They’re obliged to look for work in return for benefits. The problem is not the claimant, often it’s the employer, because the stigma of disability in the workplace still sticks, and until the government puts proper effort into tackling that we’re going to get nowhere. All that’s happening at the moment is that more conditionality is going to be put on the more severely disabled who up to now haven’t been expected to work. Unless that goes hand in hand with educating employers and opening up more schemes to support disabled people and their employers, nothing is going to change.

There are a lot of posters here who really would benefit from having a look at the eligibility conditions for disability benefits, and then looking at how out of work sickness benefits are assessed. At the moment I get the impression that people think it’s a walk in the park - mainly because the government is telling them that’s the case. Do people really not stop to think that it’s if the government is about to introduce yet another round of cuts aimed at the sick and disabled, it’s in their interests to convince the public that it’s because these benefits are too easy to claim and are being abused. All of the information about assessment procedures are online and a lot of people here would benefit from educating themselves before they comment. And fraud and error in the disability benefit system is currently around 0.2% - that includes DWP error.

Poshcatwithbigears · 26/04/2024 09:22

ThisOldThang · 25/04/2024 22:35

And what medical evidence is there for anxiety except somebody telling their doctor they suffer from anxiety?

Edited

You are displaying your ignorance lol🤣

ThisOldThang · 26/04/2024 09:27

You keep trotting out that 0.2% figure.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2022-to-2023-estimates#:~:text=3.6%25%20(£8.3%20billion),billion)%20of%20total%20benefit%20expenditure

Total fraud in the benefits system is estimated to be 3.6%.

3.6% (£8.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error

With regards to PIP, the outright fraud rate was estimated to be 0.2%, but there was an additional 0.792% associated with people that had failed to inform the government that their situations had improved:

Errors where the claimant’s condition had improved and they failed to inform the department (Functional Needs) accounted for over £8 in every £10 overpaid on PIP in FYE 2023, with an overpayment rate of 0.9%. This was the lowest estimated rate since FYE 2018 and was the reason for the lowest recorded level of overpayments in FYE 2023.

It's interesting that you chose to omit that data in a discussion regarding people being assessed to see if they still require PIP.

I, personally, think that fraud is probably much higher for Mental Health PIP because the system relies so heavily on people self-reporting their symptoms with no real way for the government to verify what's true.

Fraud and error in the benefit system: financial year 2022 to 2023 estimates

Estimates of fraud and error levels in the benefit system in Great Britain in the financial year 2022 to 2023.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2022-to-2023-estimates#:~:text=3.6%25%20(%C2%A38.3%20billion),billion)%20of%20total%20benefit%20expenditure

LadyKenya · 26/04/2024 09:30

TigerRag · 26/04/2024 07:42

We could save money by getting rid of the face to face and the constant wrong decisions.

Why are we not looking at why so many go to appeal and win?

This. How much is being spent on people having to go to tribunal, because they have not been awarded properly? It seems to be a regular occurrence. Something is going wrong, too many times, at the point of assessment.

Rosscameasdoody · 26/04/2024 09:53

TigerRag · 26/04/2024 07:42

We could save money by getting rid of the face to face and the constant wrong decisions.

Why are we not looking at why so many go to appeal and win?

There are many more areas of the benefits system where money could be saved, but they wouldn’t be popular, and would be vote losers, so they’re not even discussed. So before each and every round of ‘reform’ disabled people are given bad press in preparation for yet more cuts to disability benefits as a first option. As a result the cuts go through with very little opposition and almost no consequence for the government because most disabled people don’t vote Tory.

I think the face to face assessment has a place in the system where there is doubt as to the veracity of the claim, but there needs to be a change of thinking as to how the assessment is carried out. At the moment it’s done by medical staff recruited from NHS and given minimal training. This is reflected the poor quality of a lot of the decisions because the assessors are not doctors - they are in the main physios, paramedics and nurses and in many cases have no experience of the conditions they are supposed to be assessing.

If the DWP did their job and contacted the healthcare providers actually involved with the claimants and collected proper evidence on which to base decisions, there would be far fewer face to face assessments needed and the quality of decision making would be better. Just for clarity here, it’s not the assessor who makes the decision as to the benefit award. They provide the assessment report which goes to a case worker for DWP who is not medically qualified. The case worker then decides the award based mainly on the assessment report. And as a benefit adviser I’ve seen many assessment reports which directly contradict other medical evidence provided by the claimant, and which clearly demonstrate that the assessor hasn’t properly understood the condition.

To look at the reasons for the increase in appeals you have to go right back to when PIP was introduced. There was an assumption that DLA - it’s’ forerunner - was too easy to claim and that many disabled people were not ‘disabled enough’ (for want of a better phrase) to warrant the cost.

PIP was never intended to provide adequate support for the disabled - it was purely to save money by narrowing the eligibility conditions and introducing a much harsher assessment which was supposed to look at the actual cost of living with a disability. As anyone who has been through the assessment will tell you, there is little correlation between the way some of the activities are assessed and the actual cost. For example, incontinence is a huge expense. The assessment for it looks at how much help a person needs from someone else in dealing with incontinence (including stoma) by assessing whether you can get on and off the toilet unaided, whether you can adequately clean yourself afterwards, and what aids and appliances are needed. There is no examination of costs that feed into incontinence such as increased bills through extra bathing and laundry for example, the cost of specialist bed and personal padding and other peripherals needed. The assessment also doesn’t take into account the increased energy costs attached to specialist disability equipment that has to be charged overnight. For some, this would be unaffordable without PIP support.

As a result of the introduction of PIP, many of the more severely disabled people either lost their award or had it reduced. Not because their condition had changed, but because the eligibility had changed and support was removed or reduced purely as a result of that. Many disabled people lost their jobs because the loss of their motability vehicle meant that they could no longer travel to work. It was estimated at the time that if the motability scheme closed as a result, there would be a significant impact on the UK car industry.

So, predictably, many more people go through the appeal process because it’s the only way to get a fair decision. The first stage - mandatory reconsideration sees the claimant asking DWP to re-examine the decision, usually by asking a different case worker to look at the evidence. Inevitably most decisions stand and the next stage is tribunal, which is expensive and stressful for the claimant.

70% of PIP decisions which go to tribunal are overturned in favour of the claimant. And more and more frequently, the tribunal judges are directing criticism at the DWP for the quality of those decisions. There have been recent recommendations from upper tribunals that DWP should be fined for every decision overturned at tribunal, as a way of making them look more closely at the quality of the decision during the mandatory reconsideration stage, although nothing has been legislated for so far. But I have had experience of claimants who have got as far as getting a set date for tribunal, and as late as a couple of days beforehand they have been contacted by DWP to say that their claim has been looked at again, the award reinstated or increased, and the tribunal proceeding cancelled. I suspect DWP are now starting to look again at cases where they have no reasonable expectation of winning, and reinstating benefit to avoid the criticism.

The system is deeply flawed and weighted against the claimant. Instead of adding to the misery inflicted by the system itself people should be looking at the reasons so many disabled people are against the frequent reassessments of their condition - especially those with disabilities whose effects are unlikely to change. It’s not because they think it’s unfair that they should be assessed for benefits. It’s that they fear the inequality and bias built in to the assessment process itself.

Universalsnail · 26/04/2024 10:04

ThisOldThang · 25/04/2024 22:35

And what medical evidence is there for anxiety except somebody telling their doctor they suffer from anxiety?

Edited

You need psychiatric reports. Psychiatric reports from secondary care are not easy to get as getting a referral to secondary care is not that easy. PIP asked me for my psychiatrists contact details.

Universalsnail · 26/04/2024 10:07

ThisOldThang · 25/04/2024 23:18

ADHD = 49%
Anxiety Disorders - Other / Type Not Known = 38.60%
Back Pain - Non Specific (Mechanical) = 56.20%
Back Pain - Specific - Other / Type Not Known = 68.80%
Depressive Disorder = 50.70%
Migraine = 26.70%
Munchausen Syndrome = 57.10% (literally rewarded for faking illnesses!!!)
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) = 54.30%
Phobia - Social = 44.70%
Phobia - Specific = 45.60%
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) = 58.20%

Munchausens is a very serious mental health disorder where people go to extremes to make themselves convincingly sick. It's not just lying about being ill. People with munchausens regularly hurt themselves to make themselves sick. Someone with munchausens absolutely should qualify for PIP because people with munchausens are very unwell people who often make themselves so physically unwell they can't function in life.

Rosscameasdoody · 26/04/2024 10:09

ThisOldThang · 26/04/2024 09:27

You keep trotting out that 0.2% figure.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2022-to-2023-estimates#:~:text=3.6%25%20(£8.3%20billion),billion)%20of%20total%20benefit%20expenditure

Total fraud in the benefits system is estimated to be 3.6%.

3.6% (£8.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error

With regards to PIP, the outright fraud rate was estimated to be 0.2%, but there was an additional 0.792% associated with people that had failed to inform the government that their situations had improved:

Errors where the claimant’s condition had improved and they failed to inform the department (Functional Needs) accounted for over £8 in every £10 overpaid on PIP in FYE 2023, with an overpayment rate of 0.9%. This was the lowest estimated rate since FYE 2018 and was the reason for the lowest recorded level of overpayments in FYE 2023.

It's interesting that you chose to omit that data in a discussion regarding people being assessed to see if they still require PIP.

I, personally, think that fraud is probably much higher for Mental Health PIP because the system relies so heavily on people self-reporting their symptoms with no real way for the government to verify what's true.

I wasn’t giving the figures for general fraud in the benefits system, I was quoting the governments’ own figures for fraud and error connected with PIP and that’s 0.2%.

ThisOldThang · 26/04/2024 10:10

I wasn’t giving the figures for general fraud in the benefits system, I was quoting the governments’ own figures for fraud and error connected with PIP and that’s 0.2%.

The figure is actually 1%.

0.2% outright fraud + 0.8% people that didn't inform DWP that their condition had improved (fraud by omission).

Rosscameasdoody · 26/04/2024 10:17

Universalsnail · 26/04/2024 10:04

You need psychiatric reports. Psychiatric reports from secondary care are not easy to get as getting a referral to secondary care is not that easy. PIP asked me for my psychiatrists contact details.

It’s like banging your head against the wall with this particular poster. They actually said upthread somewhere that they were no longer contributing to the thread, so I don’t know what piqued the interest again. I was a benefit adviser for a long time, specifically working with the disabled, and had a lot of experience supporting claims for those with mental health conditions. I’ve reiterated over and over again that mental health conditions such as anxiety and depression don’t qualify for PIP if they are treated at primary care (GP) level.

You need second line consultant led care to even be considered for award, and in my experience, in these cases DWP always required either the claimant to provide the supporting evidence if they had it, or would contact the specialist teams involved for more advice. It’s utter nonsense to suggest that PIP would be awarded for either mental or physical conditions without supporting evidence and a proper assessment of the condition.

I’ve posted a lot of information on disability benefits and assessments upthread, based on personal experience over a number of years. I don’t doubt that everything I posted will be ignored because it doesn’t support the required narrative.

Rosscameasdoody · 26/04/2024 10:25

ThisOldThang · 26/04/2024 10:10

I wasn’t giving the figures for general fraud in the benefits system, I was quoting the governments’ own figures for fraud and error connected with PIP and that’s 0.2%.

The figure is actually 1%.

0.2% outright fraud + 0.8% people that didn't inform DWP that their condition had improved (fraud by omission).

Can’t be arsed arguing with you any more. I was talking about outright fraud and error. The additional 0.79% was under reporting of a change in condition. In my experience omission wasn’t generally prosecuted as fraud unless it could be demonstrated that the claimant was aware that their benefit could be affected. As much as you’d like to think otherwise, it’s not always clear and changes in condition resulting in a lower award are picked up at review stage on DWP enquiry and reassessment.

ThisOldThang · 26/04/2024 10:51

it’s not always clear and changes in condition resulting in a lower award are picked up at review stage on DWP enquiry and reassessment.

And this entire discussion is about people being reassessed.

EilonwyWithRedGoldHair · 26/04/2024 10:57

roarrfeckingroar · 21/04/2024 16:37

I think it's quite obvious these policies wouldn't be aimed at you OP. They're for people who think a bit of anxiety or depression are an excuse to not work.

You honestly think people like OP won't get caught up in this? You think the Tories care if they do?

FGS they're talking about scrapping PIP - which actually helps people stay in work. They've run down health and social care so people can't get treatment and can't get support - which makes it harder for people who could work to work.

GoodnightAdeline · 26/04/2024 10:57

I know I said I wouldn’t come back to this but, for those of you arguing any kind of reassessment of benefits is ‘brutal’ and only those in extreme need receive them, do you not feel a bit Confused now you know you’re defending people receiving disability benefits where the main problem is writer’s cramp?

Or are you going to feebly tell me writers cramp is very debilitating and as a lifelong disabled woman who takes a cocktail of meds not to die in a few days (and doesn’t claim), I should have more empathy?

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