To use annual leave for a medical procedure?

[PinkFishies]

I have ongoing gynae issues which I’ve had symptoms for since I was a teen. I’m 30s now. I’ve had a bit of time off for a past op, was given 2 week sick note by the surgeon and have had time off due to symptoms being bad. Very heavy bleeding, excruciating pain etc. too bad to be able to work from home so have to call in sick. I have another upcoming procedure where I’ll be under general anaesthetic. Management are keen for me to use annual leave to cover the days I’m off instead of sickness as they don’t want me to hit sickness triggers. I don’t want to use annual leave as I’d rather use it for time off I can enjoy instead of laying at home recovering. Thoughts?

Thank you. I feel awkward to consider myself disabled as the only diagnosis I have in my medical history is dysmenorrhea. It’s so hard to have a diagnosis of endometriosis as it’s not taken seriously with a lot of doctors and gynaecologists. For some women it takes 2-3 surgeries to be diagnosed. Just feel so deflated😪

No. Absolutely not.

Even if it triggers a meeting that meeting should recognise you needed a procedure done and move on. Sickness meetings are there to look for patterns of sickness for people faking or people needing more support for something. They aren’t there for management to bully people to keep their sickness averages down.

Personally I think there is a certain amount of protection of having it recognised as sickness properly especially in case something goes wrong and it goes on longer.

Sorry I can t read your post - was this a manager who said this to you? I would email HR for clarification and follow up every meeting they have about this by email and have it in writing.

By their very nature, sickness triggers are stupid. Everyone is different, and some will genuinely need more sick leave than others.

They cannot make you use annual leave but how much you receive in pay depends on your contract, some people who would otherwise only get statutory sick pay choose to use annual leave.

I would find out what they mean about triggering a review. I suppose it also depends on how much sick leave you have had this work year, is that what they are implying?

Cancel your annual leave and take it as sick. Unless you have lots of episodes of non related sickness which is already being monitored? I’ve been in the NHS for 24 years, 3 organisations. Never known anyone take annual leave under these circumstances. Have you asked for advice from HR?

I had similar issues with work for gynae procedures last year, both needed me to have GA. The first time the surgeon signed me off for two weeks, but because the operation needed to be repeated once finding biopsy results, work got funny about me having time off. The head teacher even tried to reassure me that it wasn't a major procedure and to just come back to work after a couple of days off. Anyway, it I took time off as needed, but this year got pulled into a meeting after I had one day off for migraine because of the time required off last year.

It's really hard, but if you are having medical issues sorted you must use your sick leave. There was no way I could look after small children all day when I wasn't allowed to drive my car or be unsupervised for 24 hours following the GA.

I'm sorry what..the NHS? And they want you to use holiday instead of sick leave.

Flabber is gasted

Shocked by your NHS update. Do you have a Union? I'm sure they would be very interested that you have been told to take AL for this.

That's so bad of the management. If having an operation doesn't justify taking sick leave then I don't know what does!

You're sick, use your sick leave. I have some underlying health issues and went over the Bradford factor scale thing they use. I got called in for a telling off even though I'd been in and out of hospital and we all knew it was legitimate sickness. I stood my ground and they actually increased my Bradford factor allowance. How can you be scored against the same criteria as a healthy person?! If they are worried suggest them to get an occupational health assessment.

There is a difference between a routine check up (dental check up, etc) and a scheduled medical procedure though.

Fair enough to ask you to schedule your routine check ups outside work; ridiculous to insist you can only have required medical treatment outside of work time.

I expected you would be an NHS employee before you said. This is common for the NHS. I used to take annual leave when sick as they made such a fuss about sick leave. We were entitled to full pay but management made you feel like you were just malingering if you took sick leave.

Absolutely take it as sick leave, don't let them bully you in to using your annual leave and don't go back before you're ready to! The only time I'd consider it is if I wasn't going to get paid and really needed it.

I have a similar problem with my manager suggesting I shouldn't go off due to awful pregnancy related sickness as I'll 'hit triggers' and that'll 'put me in a bad situation'. I have been reading my policy and pregnancy related sickness can't be used to hit triggers (my understanding is neither does disability related absence) and tbh I'm not sure the triggers actually mean much unless you get to a stage 3.

I'm not sure the NHS managers even know the policies, I find it really infuriating.

you may even be covered by the Equality Act 2010.

You are covered by the equality act 2010.

They also cannot use sickness absence related to your disability (endo/adeno) towards triggers.

Consult your union.

The only situation where this would be reasonable/your decision is if sick pay is very low and annual leave would be full pay.

Where possible ie dentists etc we would expect to book in for holidays but for hospital appointments/operations, I've never known a school ask for that.
In UK you have little choice when dates are given and there's no way I'd say no/change it with the current state of the NHS .
(ex teacher married to a HT with friends also in schools/teaching)

People talk some garbage on MN

Example "They also cannot use sickness absence related to your disability (endo/adeno) towards triggers."

Of course they can. It might well be a reasonable adjustment to move triggers or discount some periods of absence but disability related sickness absolutely can be used for triggers.

Likewise people talking about "genuine" sickness. It doesn't matter that sickness is genuine it can still result in triggers, sanctions and ultimately dismissal where there is cause and a proper process is followed.

All that said OP if you are sick take it as sick leave. Just check they weren't trying to be helpful by making sure you get paid or something (if you don't get paid for sick leave) or trying to avoid you hitting a trigger in probation or some other scenario.

I think you need to take sick leave as if your recovery means that you need to ge off for an extended period your sick leave will extend. Annual leave you would be expected back - you wouldn't have a right to extend annual leave and might not have enough either. They are simply trying it on. Yes to seeking advice from HR/occupational health/policies etc.

@catgirl1976

You are technically right in that they can use disability related sickness and have it count towards triggers.

www.acas.org.uk/supporting-disabled-people/disability-related-absence#:~:text=If%20someone's%20had%20a%20number,if%20the%20adjustments%20are%20reasonable.

However they are leaving themselves massively open to a disability discrimination claim if they do count it towards triggers and then make decisions based on it.

In the same way that if employers count pregnancy related sickness towards triggers and make decisions based on it they leave themselves open to tribunal.

Most organisations prefer to make what are clearly reasonable adjustments and not leave themselves open to hassle and tribunal claims.

In any case the op needs two weeks off for an operation. I'd like to hope she won't be dismissed for that (although I do remember that my organisation brought me in for a telling off I mean sickness trigger meeting after I had been in hospital for an accident that meant I would need a wheelchair for the rest of my life so I know full well there are some heartless bastards out there).

@Octavia64

Of course you can make decisions based on it

You just need to show whatever decisions you made (e.g. a sanction / dismissal) was a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim.

Do you have a union?

If you’re sick you should be using sick days and management were wrong to suggest otherwise.

Id only consider annual leave if you need the money and your work only offer SSP but again that’s your choice and your employer shouldn’t be suggesting it.

Ex NHS HR here. Take it as sick. Yes, you may hit a trigger, but NHS sickness processes are long and most dismissals are actually for long (6 months+ and continuing absences with no foreseeable return). Your manager may be trying to be helpful, knowing how scared some people are of hitting a trigger, but they shouldn't be suggesting this. Tell them that you want to take it as sickness and save your holiday for it's intended purpose (a break). If your manager is difficult about this, get in touch with HR. Unless you've got very short service or have had loads of absence, you're likely entitled to full pay whilst off sick.

I hope your surgery goes well OP.

No way in hell would I be bullied into using up my annual leave for a health problem. Take sick leave. You trigger their sick policy? Who cares. You are sick and can prove it.

My manager moaned at me having 3 days off sick with a terrible cough/chest thing recently. When she had almost 6 weeks off herself with “allergy issues”. Massive hypocrite.