Page 3 | Surestart should be reistated for the good of the nation

Wavywoo · 2024-04-10T07:22:12+00:00

The report out today that shows the longterm benefits of the Surestart programme confirms what supporters of the scheme said all along. The government have grossly mismanaged public resource, and done children and families a massive diservice, in defunding Surestart, and yet claiming to have spent several times more on Early Years.

Original poster

Wavywoo · 10/04/2024 09:31

GrainOfSalt · 10/04/2024 09:06

Yes definitely. The hidden value of the sure start centres were the connections and networking they provided for people from all strata of society. As they were not means tested/ invite only my new parent group/ breast feeding group/ treasure baskets/ stay and play/ HV clinc etc was attended by a huge variety of people.

We had vets, midwives (as mum attendees), teachers, supermarket workers, hairdressers, a mum whose partner was in prison, an 18 year old and that's just off the top of my head. We met in groups more than once a week, supported each other by accident and I have maintained some of those friendships 14 years later (with a cross section of those groups) .

We had Christmas meals out and many people stayed close over the years and carried on meeting at school gates. Independent social events meant this spread to the dads and there was even a dad's stay and play at the centre on a Saturday that was well attended - they got bacon sandwiches which was somewhat a point of contention.

This was apart from the fact the centre workers were fab. As means to cross class lines it was invaluable and their destruction was one of the most damaging and shortsighted things the subsequent governments did. If you want society to look after and support itself you need to facilitate connections not break them.

Edited

This! Those centres fostered communities in so many ways, and crossed class divides in a really valuable way.

OP posts:

TheCheekyKob · 10/04/2024 09:34

Wavywoo · 10/04/2024 09:29

Many reasons, that might include mental health difficulties, learning difficulties, lack of access to the Internet, fear of authority, lack of language skills, time being taken up with dealing with other problems to do with poverty eg dealing with a housing provider, dealing with domestic violence...many, many reasons.

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So why would they make an effort to go to a sure start place?

It’s not the governments place to sort out people who fear authorities or don’t want to deal with housing providers. People shouldn’t have to be spoon fed.

The one near me was ok for a free play group but their courses were crap, it’s one of those places that like to claim they are busy yet 1 person will turn up to their course.

ifyouthinkimrexy · 10/04/2024 09:35

Misthios · 10/04/2024 08:49

My eldest is 21, when he was a toddler we used to live near a SureStart centre. The "catchment area" of the centre was very mixed, with some real pockets of poverty and deprivation, a large immigrant community, but also some more affluent middle class areas where the parents were not facing challenges in raising their kids. Every afternoon there was something going on at the centre and we made lots of use of it, despite not falling into the real target group. Everyone I met through going to their craft sessions, active play sessions, sing and rhyme sessions wasn't their target "deprived" group either.

Heard a HV at a baby clinic several times telling parents about the centre and encouraging attendance, usually with the response that it wasn't the sort of thing they were interested in. You can lead a horse to water...

This was exactly my experience, too.

Molonty · 10/04/2024 09:38

I think that there needs to be support at both ends , the early years and the teen years. It's interesting on this thread that people have said it was used a lot by parents who didn't actually need it. And oddly enough I live in an affluent area and there are so many of these types of centres, all free and wonderful and honestly could be in areas used by people who really need them. I had to take my LO for her 12m check to one and I was really impressed by the classes they offered and the actual site. It was no different to the private membership club that we use.
We have SO many libraries around us and community centres, churches who also run really great programs. Just this Easter holiday I walked past our local church and was so impressed by the schedule of activities they were running.
Our libraries as well, run something daily. We then have 2 huge community centres with SO much going on. I really wish this type of community and investment into families were available everywhere.

Original poster

Wavywoo · 10/04/2024 09:38

TheCheekyKob · 10/04/2024 08:54

They had sure start when my daughter was a baby. She’s 12 now. It was about a 1 minute walk from my house and I used to go to the baby sensory play classes there.

It was mostly play group session and then ran courses on multiple stuff that was a load of crap. I went to some as my youngest had a disability. They were all useless, I knew more information then they did.

Honestly can’t see why we need them again.

I mostly used it to meet mates and have a chat while the toddlers played for free. Which I could do in a Softplay and pay. Funding doesn’t need to be wasted on this.

Oh and as a side note, I’m not in poverty, I wasn’t a single mum, I didn’t need help financially and I certainly didn’t need their courses they ran. Everyone I knew used it to hang out with the kids cheaply.

Edited

I’m not in poverty, I wasn’t a single mum, I didn’t need help financially and I certainly didn’t need their courses they ran.

You were in a very fortunate position!

Surestart provided a lot more than that, targeted to families with a variety of chsllenges, but you would not have seen it.

What a shame that you can't see beyond your own experience.

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Movingon2024 · 10/04/2024 09:39

mixed experience here.

SureStart opened locally in a couple of more deprived areas, and by all accounts did a great job at providing support support and advice, reducing social isolation etc. however, they couldn’t reach those with real problems (addiction issues, homelessness etc) as they just wouldn’t engage.

then they also opened a couple of centres in more well off areas here. It became a hangout for people who really didn’t need the support, more playgroups and coffee.

so I think given scarce resources it needs to be more targeted for those who really need it. But I don’t know how to do that.

Molonty · 10/04/2024 09:39

Needmorelego · 10/04/2024 09:30

Genuine question - what's the difference between a "Sure Start Centre" and a 'Children's Centre" ?
My daughter is almost 16 and when a baby I took her to various Children's Centre's for a mixture of things - the health visitor weigh in sessions, mother and new baby sessions, stay and play etc.
These Children's Centre places all still exist.

Good question and maybe this is what we have too as per my last post. We have a children's centre so maybe that was the difference?

Needmorelego · 10/04/2024 09:44

@Molonty I was just checking online that the Children's Centres in my borough do still exist and there's loads of them plus various places that are known as "One O'clock Club" (essentially a Stay and Play place).

Anewuser · 10/04/2024 09:45

I really don’t want to be goady but can I ask what Sure Start centres did?

When mine were little (a long time ago), we would have babies weighed at doctors clinics, take children to playgroups and meet ups at places suggested by the health visitor.

My school had a sure start centre attached but was always empty (great for school as they got to use the vacant room then). No one seemed to visit and courses were unattended.

Honest question: what was their focus?

Original poster

Wavywoo · 10/04/2024 09:46

TinyYellow · 10/04/2024 09:15

And the hard to reach families often didn’t access sure start even when it’s available.

The families that need it already revive free early years education for their children from 2 years old, they can do free language and literacy classes then.

Health centres can provide advice about breastfeeding/nutrition etc if there was the will do do it properly.

We really shouldn’t need a nationwide chain of free service centres to tell parents that they need to brush their child’s teeth and all of that. The fact that some parents do need this is shameful, but it is not a reason to restart a device that provides free play groups to people who can afford to pay for them.

Having all of these services and freebies open to everyone in one convenient place regardless of need absolutely is a ‘nice to have’ and not an essential. Some of their services might be essential, the centres themselves are not.

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They accessed it on different ways.

It may be shameful to you to have to teach some basic parenting eg teeth brushing, but it has literally been in the news over the past few weeks about teethbrushing bring taught in schools, so it's still an issue. Not everyone has the benefit of having been parented to a particular standard prior to becoming a parent themselves.

One of the big values in the scheme was that it recognised that all children and their families benefit from good quality support, regardless of social status.

OP posts:

Original poster

Wavywoo · 10/04/2024 09:48

FUPAgirl · 10/04/2024 09:08

We still have it in my part of the UK - can't say we've any better outcomes for it when compared with England. We don't get free childcare though - I think that would be far more beneficial. I briefly worked at SS and it was incredibly difficult to get the target groups engaged. I'm afraid I'm not convinced that pumping millions into SS is the answer to any problems.

Edited

So because it was more difficult to get some families engaged, it wasn't worth it? Even though those families were intending the most in need?

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Peclet · 10/04/2024 09:52

Sure starts were fantastic and are an essential service for the community. There is a wedge of research that shows the benefits of early intervention and early years input.

“free” childcare- don’t make me laugh. The scheme is eviscerating the EY sector with nurseries closing left right and centre. Staff are massively underpaid and undervalued.

Original poster

Wavywoo · 10/04/2024 09:55

Needmorelego · 10/04/2024 09:30

Genuine question - what's the difference between a "Sure Start Centre" and a 'Children's Centre" ?
My daughter is almost 16 and when a baby I took her to various Children's Centre's for a mixture of things - the health visitor weigh in sessions, mother and new baby sessions, stay and play etc.
These Children's Centre places all still exist.

Maybe it varies, but ours were Surestart Children's Centres. Ours no longer exist sadly, and I think thousands closed nationally over time. Some councils may have kept theirs but the comprehensive joined up scheme may not be the same.

It is hopeful though if yours is still going!

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Singleandproud · 10/04/2024 09:57

Groups I went to included Stay and Play, Music groups, Baby signing, Toddler cooking, messy play, Breastfeeding Cafes, Nutrition and weaning courses, baby weighing and general concerns clinics, baby massage and lots more. There were also home visits, support for parents with additional needs, support for children with additional needs, groups for young mums under 25, groups for dads, counselling, support for those who have experienced DV and all sorts. Being in the one building meant that women become familiar with it through baby weighing and then were more likely to try other activities. It was just as much for supporting the child's development as supporting the parents.

I think the main goal was to increase parental involvement with professionals, offer support to those that need it, keep an eye out for possible safeguarding and DV in an age group not yet at school, pick up possible SEN earlier ( although when I mentioned DD was reading at around 3 the play worker definitely rolled her eyes, and put me under the category of 'that' parent, turns out DD is autistic and very gifted).

Original poster

Wavywoo · 10/04/2024 10:02

Anewuser · 10/04/2024 09:45

I really don’t want to be goady but can I ask what Sure Start centres did?

When mine were little (a long time ago), we would have babies weighed at doctors clinics, take children to playgroups and meet ups at places suggested by the health visitor.

My school had a sure start centre attached but was always empty (great for school as they got to use the vacant room then). No one seemed to visit and courses were unattended.

Honest question: what was their focus?

They would have varied a bit at local level, but the scheme provided a one stop shop for all things 0-5 years, including midwife care, health visiting service, post natal mental health support and developing school readiness. They were tailored to their area so would not have been all the same but usually included universal baby groups, stay and play sessions that promoted parents playing with their children in various ways, informal parent support and advice and peer support. There was also a focus on reaching families with particular challenges eg poverty related problems and mental health.

Ours also had a job club that offered support in finding work and basic maths and English classes.

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TakemedowntoPotatoCity · 10/04/2024 10:03

Yanbu. I used the centres a lot when DD was a baby. The government push to get younger and younger kids and babies into childcare so both parents can work every hour god sends is what I have the issue with, though.

Babyyygirl · 10/04/2024 10:03

MarshMarig0ld7364 · 10/04/2024 08:29

I don’t think there is enough money now and society has moved on. Families are getting free childcare, both parents are often now working and actually I think teens and young adults are the group needing better investment and which get the least. Mental health provision across the board is on its knees. Spare cash needs to go there.

Where can I get free childcare? And why can't the gov invest in early years and mental health? I feel mental health services for the age group 16-21 is ignored so they should be prioritised. The gov waste tax payers money in so many ways. My mum used Sure Start when I was a baby/toddler and said it was great.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 10/04/2024 10:05

MarshMarig0ld7364 · 10/04/2024 08:29

I don’t think there is enough money now and society has moved on. Families are getting free childcare, both parents are often now working and actually I think teens and young adults are the group needing better investment and which get the least. Mental health provision across the board is on its knees. Spare cash needs to go there.

This is so blinkered.

Investing in SureStart reduces the burden on everything and every young person.

TinyYellow · 10/04/2024 10:05

Wavywoo · 10/04/2024 09:46

They accessed it on different ways.

It may be shameful to you to have to teach some basic parenting eg teeth brushing, but it has literally been in the news over the past few weeks about teethbrushing bring taught in schools, so it's still an issue. Not everyone has the benefit of having been parented to a particular standard prior to becoming a parent themselves.

One of the big values in the scheme was that it recognised that all children and their families benefit from good quality support, regardless of social status.

Show quote history

I know it’s still an issue and that some parents still need targeted support to achieve the basics, but I don’t think sure start centres are the way to do it. At a time when people can’t even get GP appointments, the country can’t afford to provide playgroups for those lucky enough to be SAHP’s.

Two year olds already get access to pre school education when there is a need and it would be more efficient to provide directed support about teeth brushing etc through HV’s.

Dbirk · 10/04/2024 10:11

They should bring them back. There's lots of data not just anecdotes to support them. I attended one with my first. I had plenty of money but my mental health was on the floor but I covered it well. DS was ASD but we didn't know it then. I found them to be a lifeline. I'm sure I'd have been put in the 'doesn't need to be here' category. Those centres are an investment in our societies future. Follow the data and fund them. They aren't needed for one generation. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of how they work. Each generation of new mums needs support often in invisible ways.

Desecratedcoconut · 10/04/2024 10:20

Families aren't struggling because they can't brush their children's teeth. Families are struggling and so they don't have the stability, resources, time, headspace to build a daily rhythm of teeth brushing. It's easy to go - "oh, come here, this is how you brush your teeth - job done, how hard was that?"

The sure starts built a battery of resources, tools, signposts and engineered a support network to help with the big stuff. And the small stuff would fall into line once you had been helped someone out of, say, a dv situation, or had signposted someone to access to available counseling for trauma, or had supported someone to build a routine of caring that they had never had or seen in their own childhood etc, etc.

Having a centre point that wasn't stigmatized as only for struggling parents made a space to be a part of the shared experience of parenting with some dignity for those who needed the most help but it also offered support for those who were doing fine but needed a shared community or a targeted nudge for help here and there. And for those who were thriving there was a place and opportunity to help others and volunteer. It was everything that dickfest Cameron talked about when he romanticized the big society while he systematically dismantled it from under our feet

Original poster

Wavywoo · 10/04/2024 10:23

Desecratedcoconut · 10/04/2024 10:20

Families aren't struggling because they can't brush their children's teeth. Families are struggling and so they don't have the stability, resources, time, headspace to build a daily rhythm of teeth brushing. It's easy to go - "oh, come here, this is how you brush your teeth - job done, how hard was that?"

The sure starts built a battery of resources, tools, signposts and engineered a support network to help with the big stuff. And the small stuff would fall into line once you had been helped someone out of, say, a dv situation, or had signposted someone to access to available counseling for trauma, or had supported someone to build a routine of caring that they had never had or seen in their own childhood etc, etc.

Having a centre point that wasn't stigmatized as only for struggling parents made a space to be a part of the shared experience of parenting with some dignity for those who needed the most help but it also offered support for those who were doing fine but needed a shared community or a targeted nudge for help here and there. And for those who were thriving there was a place and opportunity to help others and volunteer. It was everything that dickfest Cameron talked about when he romanticized the big society while he systematically dismantled it from under our feet

Edited

Totally agree!

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Summertimeagain · 10/04/2024 10:27

DogsAndBirds · 10/04/2024 08:50

In my area there are still a few "family hubs" which act similar to what I believe sure starts were. I attended a breastfeeding group there most weeks until I returned to work.

The problem I found was that almost everyone attending the group (including myself) was driving in from a fair distance and were generally more affluent (teachers/doctors etc) whereby the hub is in a very deprived area. I think other sessions there were attended by a similar demographic. I can imagine this would be the problem if sure start centre were bought back.

This is also true of my area. Demarcating an area in terms of depravation needs to be done conclusively or not at all. I'm assuming that audits etc would have highlighted this problem of more affluent people coming into the area and using the services.Locally we had the more affluent simply adding it to their list of weekly activities, the remainder of which they would have paid for.Those who were in need were squeezed out. The organisers then said they couldn't get people from their target area to attend and moved their targets outwards.
There's a huge need for the service but it needs to be 100% targeted.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 10/04/2024 10:27

TheCheekyKob · 10/04/2024 08:54

They had sure start when my daughter was a baby. She’s 12 now. It was about a 1 minute walk from my house and I used to go to the baby sensory play classes there.

It was mostly play group session and then ran courses on multiple stuff that was a load of crap. I went to some as my youngest had a disability. They were all useless, I knew more information then they did.

Honestly can’t see why we need them again.

I mostly used it to meet mates and have a chat while the toddlers played for free. Which I could do in a Softplay and pay. Funding doesn’t need to be wasted on this.

Oh and as a side note, I’m not in poverty, I wasn’t a single mum, I didn’t need help financially and I certainly didn’t need their courses they ran. Everyone I knew used it to hang out with the kids cheaply.

Edited

We didn’t have one in my area. It was one of the professional areas that was last in the list. So we never got one.

If we had, maybe my daughters ASD would have been picked up. Instead of being diagnosed at 16, and now nearly 18? She has been out of education for a year due to burnout with little improvement.

MarshMarig0ld7364 · 10/04/2024 10:30

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 10/04/2024 10:27

We didn’t have one in my area. It was one of the professional areas that was last in the list. So we never got one.

If we had, maybe my daughters ASD would have been picked up. Instead of being diagnosed at 16, and now nearly 18? She has been out of education for a year due to burnout with little improvement.

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No they wouldn’t, mine weren’t and we are in exactly the same situation. It wasn’t even picked up by primary school . I’m not sure sure start workers with little autism expertise are the best people to pick it up. More money in autism diagnostics, support and mental health provision would be better.