To not see my works doctor who want to override my specialist sick note?

[Thea44]

I've been off sick for 2 months after really major surgery. My gp has certified me sick for another month.

My work are being very pushy, the nurse rings me and gives me ridiculous advice about my symptoms which are clearly related to my serious health condition and surgery, like "maybe you're dehydrated".

They have now said I need to see the company doctor. If he says I'm fit to come back I have to return or they stop my pay.

Can they overrule my gp and specialist like this? Do I have to go? I've seen them bully people back to work before. I'm likely to be back in the next few weeks anyway once I'm safe to be there.

Occupational health are always fantastic in my experience , I was referred to them for a mental health issue and they recommended more time off and a phased return with extra help in my job etc so it worked out for the best .

And I'm just giving mine.

I was trusting and cooperative and then my confidentiality was breached.

Now I am fearful and hesitant. I have every right to be without being cast as a workshy liar.

Don't make disparaging assumptions about why people are hesitant to trust a medical professional paid by their employer rather than their own independent doctor with whom they have a trusting relationship.

This is the ACAS advice, basically go and it should be a positive experience. If it's not, that's something to deal with then

https://www.acas.org.uk/using-occupational-health-at-work/using-occupational-health-to-help-someone-at-work

They have now said I need to see the company doctor. If he says I'm fit to come back I have to return or they stop my pay

Did they actually say "If the doctor says you are fit to come back you will have to return or we will stop your pay" ? Or is that something you have extrapolated from them saying you need to see the company doctor?

I've had good and bad experiences of OH. I would always take somebody with me to the appointment as a witness where possible, just in case there are any issues.

I work in HR and deal with OH referrals.

I’ve never seen a report which contradicts what the employee’s GP line has advised, although I’m sure it has happened.

Generally the OH doctor just verifies what the employee tells them in a “Yes, that sounds about right.” kind of way and makes recommendations on supports/ phased returns. The OH doctor sees your medical records, but they aren’t shared with the employer.

I would be massively hesitant about seeing doctor who shares your employer though. I’d worry about conflict of interest and your right to maintain a degree of separation between your medical history and a potential colleague.

It’s very normal and typically a condition of insurance. If you’re getting enhanced sick pay it will be at risk.

Well yes if that's what your Company sickness absence policy is. There is no right to sick pay in the U.K., just SSP. Sucks but that's how it is.

Mmm I think it depends. I had major surgery on my foot years ago involving a tendon transfer, heal realignment, bolt fitted etc . I spoke to HR beforehand as well as my boss and explained that the consultant had said I would need at least 6 weeks off and then a phased return. Three days after the operation the same woman from HR phoned me at home to say that she was going to get an OH adviser to phone me so that I could come back to work much sooner . She was very taken back when I refused and pointed out that I'd been told this time was crucial for the healing of the tendon and my future ability to walk. Quite apart from anything else I was non weight bearing, on crutches and lived in a top floor flat . Turned out she'd not read anything I'd sent and assumed that I was off with stress.

It's very normal for OH to get involved in long-term absences.

As PP have said, there's no right to sick pay in the UK, so if your contract says that company sick pay will stop unless you do XYZ, they're well within their rights to do that.

It might be in your contract of employment that you have to attend such appointments, have a look. I highly doubt the OH doctor will try to force a return, as a PP has said they are usually cautious and very mindful of what your own specialist has said. They can’t “over rule” a sick note anyway.
From a company point of view, they have a duty of care to you and also unfortunately need to protect themselves. In my earlier career in HR I provided support to somebody who was absent. I met her off site regularly, she had my personal phone number, I really went above and beyond. She didn’t want to see the OH doctor and I allowed that as we had reports from her specialist. Once she had returned to work, months on, there was a round of redundancies. She went to a lawyer and claimed we failed to support her recovery as we didn’t refer her to OH for specific work related recommendations and advice (at her request of course). ACAS agreed with her that I’d failed in my duty of care. I was gutted.

My OH nurse said informally to me "You have to have an exit plan, this job is making you ill.", whilst writing formally to my manager saying "Lougle must not be made to do night shifts." She gave me time to work out a plan to improve my situation.

They aren't an 'in-house doctor' they are a doctor qualified in Occupational Health.

While your doctor has given you a sick note, he/she doesn't know anything about health as it relates to work. And being strictly honest, most GPs will just give you a sick note if you ask - they don't employ you and don't want to risk you making a complaint.

Having seen quite a lot of Occ Health doctors in my time, the experience has always been excellent. More than once they have told my manager to back off and leave me alone, or made helpful recommendations that got me back at work quicker.

Ultimately your employer can fire you for being off sick, they need you there to do your job. And being at home on no pay is no good for you either.

You are much better off seeing the Occ Health specialist and really participating in the assessment.

Are you sure this is what they are wanting to do OP, or are they seeking a secondary opinion before continuing sick pay?

If your “company doctor” is someone who works in the HR dept. And is buddies with the CEO, I could sense your anxiety. More than likely it’s a third party company who would be following NHS guidelines.

I was once referred to occupational health (company doctor) after a close relative died and I was signed off with 2 weeks of stress (I became a temporary carer for the widow etc etc) and because I met a “trigger” for absence management they reviewed all my absences since being employed (4 instances in 6 years) and referred me to occupational health, the doctor I spoke with laughed said it was protocol for some companies and sent a letter telling them what I already had.

its fucking shitty though OP and very bad practise , once you are better I would look for another job pronto. They don’t deserve you.

Normal in my experience too and, like others, I've find OH to be much more risk averse than other doctors. I was off for a bit, due to return to work (with my doctor's blessing) but had found out I was pregnant during that time and OH wouldn't let me return for another 6 weeks.

OP I assume there is more to this than you are letting on, few normal and reasonable people would have any problem being seen by OH whilst on long term sick being paid for the privilege by the company.

You will likely find it is in your terms that you must undertake an OH assessment as your employer sees fit.

FYI yes technically they can declare you fit to work or to do certain work.

It's not in the company's interest to have a doctor make a sick person go back to work. It makes accidents or other illnesses more likely and opens them up to legal action. So if you are sick you should have nothing to fear about seeing another doctor, just because work are paying for it.

I had this after surgery and they backed my own doctor and said I was not fit to return to work - obviously that was my experience but I would hope the doctor would be professional and recommend solely on what they see! Good luck!

Another one who found the OH doctor to be 100% supportive, and in tune with my GP with regard to the length of my sick leave. I suspect that you've misunderstood their role or it's been poorly explained to you.

I've been referred to my works OH service a couple of times, both have been positive. The first time I was quite worried because I had an uncommon illness that is usually quick resolving but was severe and prolonged for me. I was worried the OH doctor would be dismissive. However, they very much took mine, my specialist and my GPs lead. The second time, the OH doctor suggested a longer period of recuperation. Both times were my work wanting to know how they could support me and whether their proposed phased return to work was appropriate (when I was well enough) and if there were any activities that I needed to avoid. Neither time was because they didn't believe me or my sick notes.

I had to go once. The doctor lied through her teeth, said I was laughing and joking with her and was happy to return to work full time, no phased return or anything.

My GP hit the roof when he found out. He wrote a longer sick note and then wrote a letter giving explicit instructions to basically leave me the fuck alone to heal.

If you have a supportive specialist, I wouldn't worry. Go through the motions, document everything and don't be afraid to challenge inaccuracies.

OH can not overwrite any sick note from a GP/specialist who is treating you. That is not their function. Their function is to try to help you be in a position where you are able to return to work- possibly by better understanding the situation or making recommendations to your employer. OH are not your medical professional- they can not prescribe anything for you.

I was once referred to Occ Health after a spell in hospital and 4 weeks off work with a sick note. When I arrived the Dr asked me why I was there, I said my employer had sent me. He said my employer was wasting my and his time- my GP had the medical info, was looking after me and had said I was unfit for work and I was on medication. He would write to my employer reiterating that. He said I did nit have to attend further appointments if my employer made them given I was being treated by a specialist and under the care of my GP.

I've worked with Occ Health teams. They are very much there to ensure that if you return to work it's done in a way that won't cause you harm. In a nutshell their role is to ensure the employer doesn't get sued or reported to the HSE. If a business has an Occ Health department they are likely involved in an industry that has a lot of health risks requiring monitoring and so will be shit hot on health and safety even if the HR department are not (possible exception might be if an employer was so huge it could be justified). I spent a lot of time working with the clinical staff and they were very much advocates for the employee. I saw some pretty fierce doctors and nurses who were willing to take on HR and line managers in a way that employees might be scared to do themselves. Please don't worry and if you're fearful discuss it with the climician. Your conversation should absolutely be medically confidential despite the appalling experience of a pp which is definitely not the norm.

I'm afraid that it is possible for your work to "over-rule" a sick note: it is advice to your employer, and your employer can choose whether or not to take that advice (clearly if they choose not to, they would need to feel that they were on firm ground).