Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel like all I do is discipline my 3yo?

48 replies

3yohelp1 · 03/04/2024 20:03

Since my son turned 3 he has become so defiant. Absolutely everything is NO or I DONT LIKE IT.

Asking him to help tidy or do something that he's told is a no go, he will just refuse and refuse and refuse and refuse.

You could literally sit and paint with him and 2 minutes later ask if just painted something and he'd shout NO!!!!! at you.

If I try and do anything like picking him up and removing him from something if he's misbehaving, he will lash out and smack me, shout GO AWAY etc..

I feel like every day with him is just spent asking him to use kind hands, sitting on the step and yes shouting sometimes too because he will push and push and push etc etc..

He can also be very affectionate and ask for cuddles which is lovely but he just seems to grumpy these days, not just with me but everyone.

Is it a 3 year old thing? I feel like this is worse than the terrible two stages!!

OP posts:
onawave · 04/04/2024 11:57

The naughty step doesn't work with mine. Just turns into a merry go round of on/off and both of us getting worked up. Instead I'll put her in her room and let her work out the tantrum on her own. She's usually done in a minute or so and reading to herself quite happily.
I do what others have mentioned, notice and reward the good. I give out high five's for everything in this house. Putting socks on, trying a new food, picking up a toy, you name it, it gets a high five.

Yourethebeerthief · 04/04/2024 12:08

I think time out/naughty step is wrong, cruel and, above all, completely pointless. He won't learn a thing from this. Neither of you will get anything out of it except exhaustion and confusion.

I get "no!", "I don't like that!", or "I don't want that!". They key is to be completely unbothered by it and remember he can be angry or upset about things if he wants, he's processing his emotions. Just say "ok" with a shrug and move on. As long as he's not hurting anyone, I ignore tantrums and then I'm bright and breezy the second they stop.

Don't go on and on at him about things. If my son has a tantrum about something I'm firm but fair and keep it short and simple. I remember once he was wailing about wanting a flapjack. I had no flapjacks. He was told no once and given the reason "we don't have any flapjacks in the house right now, we can bake some tomorrow." Then he was told twice and given other options for a snack. After saying the same thing twice I don't say it again. I left him to have a cry on the floor about it and got on with some housework. 3 minutes in he couldn't be bothered anymore and came to ask politely for a banana.

Straight away he got a banana and a "shall we get the race track out and play cars?" "Yeh!!" Another key point, don't talk about it afterwards. He's learning the lesson in the moment that tantrums don't get him anywhere. That's enough. Tantrums are very rare in this house.

Channel your inner IDGAF attitude.

3yohelp1 · 04/04/2024 12:47

Thanks for replies.

One of the things I struggle with a lot is what to do when he refuses to do something. He so unbelievably stubborn.

For example, if I ask him to tidy up his toys or something (something we have always done and which I think is important - helping to tidy up your mess), he will just out and out refuse. No amount of nice talking or gentle talking or explaining why we tidy up after ourselves work. He will just NO NO NO NO NO. The only way to get him to do it is via some form of "punishment" I.e. okay well you can sit on the step/have a certain toy taken away/ not watch any paw patrol today or whatever until you do it.

I don't want to give in and just let him not do it if that makes sense so I feel I need to keep going until he does eventually do it which is just a battle but I also don't want to be in the position of just giving in and letting him get away with not doing as he's told/asked all the time.

OP posts:
FrypanFran · 04/04/2024 13:02

I always suggest we do a new activity that he enjoys, but we "can't start until we tidy up". Once he starts to tidy on his own I always lend him a hand and sing a tidy up song. It's always worked much better than punishment for me. "Yes I'd love to play ball, but we can't do that until we clean up our mess"

3yohelp1 · 04/04/2024 13:26

FrypanFran · 04/04/2024 13:02

I always suggest we do a new activity that he enjoys, but we "can't start until we tidy up". Once he starts to tidy on his own I always lend him a hand and sing a tidy up song. It's always worked much better than punishment for me. "Yes I'd love to play ball, but we can't do that until we clean up our mess"

I've tried this, do you want to do some painting? Yes fab! We have to tidy these up first though and all I get back is NO and a grumpy face 😅

It's only when I start saying things like okay well no painting today then or mummy will go and paint then in the other room but you can't because you won't help tidy up that eventually he will start to do it.

OP posts:
PotatoPudding · 04/04/2024 13:31

What are the consequences for not doing as he’s told. For my DS (now 5), consequences need to be meaningful to him. He doesn’t get dessert or a biscuit today if he doesn’t do what he should. He can’t have a certain toy back until he’s done it. They need to be things you can actually follow through with, so keep that in mind.

FrypanFran · 04/04/2024 13:33

@3yohelp1 Well that's great then! Keep at it and he will come round. You're doing everything right, they just like to pick fights at that age little 💩😂 I would wait an hour or two sometimes before ds would tidy on his own. After ages he finally got with the routine. They do seem to blossom after they hit 4 and become much more reasonable (most of the time)

Yourethebeerthief · 04/04/2024 15:32

3yohelp1 · 04/04/2024 12:47

Thanks for replies.

One of the things I struggle with a lot is what to do when he refuses to do something. He so unbelievably stubborn.

For example, if I ask him to tidy up his toys or something (something we have always done and which I think is important - helping to tidy up your mess), he will just out and out refuse. No amount of nice talking or gentle talking or explaining why we tidy up after ourselves work. He will just NO NO NO NO NO. The only way to get him to do it is via some form of "punishment" I.e. okay well you can sit on the step/have a certain toy taken away/ not watch any paw patrol today or whatever until you do it.

I don't want to give in and just let him not do it if that makes sense so I feel I need to keep going until he does eventually do it which is just a battle but I also don't want to be in the position of just giving in and letting him get away with not doing as he's told/asked all the time.

"Tidy up the toys" can be a huge, vague, overwhelming thing for a 3 year old. How are the toys organised?

We do toy rotation so there is never a huge amount out at any given time, and toys are all in baskets at child level and sorted by type. Give him one very specific instruction "tidy all the teddies/bricks/cars into this basket, I'm going to tidy xyz". And then just blitz it. You do the majority and let him focus on his little category.

If he is still refusing then you say "right, all the toys that I had to tidy are all tidied up now. I'm going to have a cup of tea and a biscuit." "I want a biscuit tooooo!" "Of course you can have a biscuit. Join me in the kitchen when the teddies/bricks/cars are all tidied away and we can eat our biscuits together."

Then leave and be totally unbothered. Let him take as long as he needs.

My son is two and a half and can manage this. It's all about being unbothered and timing it well. Time it for a natural point in the day when it makes sense to have a tidy and then a little biscuit/smoothie/whatever treat he likes break. Give him loads of praise afterwards and say things like "wow this is so tidy, look at all the space we have now to do xyz."

SpeedwellBlue · 04/04/2024 15:51

Donotgogentle · 03/04/2024 20:09

I think it’s easy to get into a negative cycle of poor behaviour and always telling them off.

Best advice I had was “notice them being good”. Every positive thing they do, even small, notice it and comment on it.

eg, you put your socks on really quickly, thanks for doing that. Well done for sharing your toy/sitting nicely/saying please. It was really good when you xyz. Etc.

Don’t go overboard with praise or be fake, just notice the good stuff. It really changed the dynamic of my relationship with DS1 around that age.

Agree with this.

RedRobyn2021 · 04/04/2024 20:06

3yohelp1 · 04/04/2024 12:47

Thanks for replies.

One of the things I struggle with a lot is what to do when he refuses to do something. He so unbelievably stubborn.

For example, if I ask him to tidy up his toys or something (something we have always done and which I think is important - helping to tidy up your mess), he will just out and out refuse. No amount of nice talking or gentle talking or explaining why we tidy up after ourselves work. He will just NO NO NO NO NO. The only way to get him to do it is via some form of "punishment" I.e. okay well you can sit on the step/have a certain toy taken away/ not watch any paw patrol today or whatever until you do it.

I don't want to give in and just let him not do it if that makes sense so I feel I need to keep going until he does eventually do it which is just a battle but I also don't want to be in the position of just giving in and letting him get away with not doing as he's told/asked all the time.

He's 3

If you want him to help pick up the toys ask him to help and if he says no then you just do it, tell him, "you can watch paw patrol but you'll need to wait until all these toys are tidied away, it would be nice if you would help"

This is what I've always done with my daughter and sometimes I will still be the one picking stuff up but today after she'd finished playing with her dolls house she put everything away neatly. I didn't need to ask her. I wasn't even in the same room. This isn't the first time she tidied up after herself either and she's only just 3.

Children learn best from modelling.

RedRobyn2021 · 04/04/2024 20:07

PotatoPudding · 04/04/2024 13:31

What are the consequences for not doing as he’s told. For my DS (now 5), consequences need to be meaningful to him. He doesn’t get dessert or a biscuit today if he doesn’t do what he should. He can’t have a certain toy back until he’s done it. They need to be things you can actually follow through with, so keep that in mind.

That's not a consequence, tidying toys and not getting a biscuit are not related at all. That is a punishment.

3yohelp1 · 04/04/2024 20:24

RedRobyn2021 · 04/04/2024 20:06

He's 3

If you want him to help pick up the toys ask him to help and if he says no then you just do it, tell him, "you can watch paw patrol but you'll need to wait until all these toys are tidied away, it would be nice if you would help"

This is what I've always done with my daughter and sometimes I will still be the one picking stuff up but today after she'd finished playing with her dolls house she put everything away neatly. I didn't need to ask her. I wasn't even in the same room. This isn't the first time she tidied up after herself either and she's only just 3.

Children learn best from modelling.

See I'm just so against doing this. Not helping him, if I ask him to tidy I always help him to do it. Even if he just puts one or two things away that's fine.

But I don't like the idea of him being able to say NO and then me just going okay then and doing it for him instead.

OP posts:
MissingMoominMamma · 04/04/2024 20:26

Distract him with humour, and eventually get him to do what you’re asking.

He’s learning the rules! 😃

Twolittleloves · 04/04/2024 20:29

3yohelp1 · 03/04/2024 20:10

He has to sit on the step (which will usually eventually work but can sometimes take a good 10-15 mins of putting him back on, lots of screaming and crying etc.), I remove toys, take him away from what he is doing if he's misbehaving, have left places before because he was misbehaving and I said we would and admittedly sometimes I do shout at him too because sometimes it reaches the point where I feel its the only thing that does actually work and we can then have a cuddle and move on... until the next thing.

The issue is at that age they don't have the brain development skills to be able to regulate their behaviour and 'do better' the next time.So whilst they do need to be taught right from wrong, the discipline techniques such as the naughty step really don't work to improve behaviour- all they do is cause resentment and make a child more frustrated.

CarrotCake01 · 04/04/2024 20:33

RedRobyn2021 · 03/04/2024 20:22

I've been listening to

"How to talk so little kids will listen" audiobook, it's good I recommend it

It's hard work

I was going to suggest this book too!
Lots of good tips OP!

takemeawayagain · 04/04/2024 20:34

3yohelp1 · 04/04/2024 13:26

I've tried this, do you want to do some painting? Yes fab! We have to tidy these up first though and all I get back is NO and a grumpy face 😅

It's only when I start saying things like okay well no painting today then or mummy will go and paint then in the other room but you can't because you won't help tidy up that eventually he will start to do it.

That's ok though, that's consequences - we can't do the painting if we don't put the toys away. Time out though it a boring battle that is horrible to put yourself through IMO, it's not fair on parents and does nothing for a 3 year old, and definitely don;t send him to his bedroom, the place you sleep shouldn't be a place of punishment.

Have you tried making it into a fun game - instead of putting the toys away do some magic - get him to close his eyes and you make some of the toys disappear back where they should be then 'can you do magic too? - I bet you can't do magic and make the toys go back in the cupboard (close your eyes) and say 'I wonder if any magic is happening' type things - or alternatively 'we're going to have a race and see it we can get all these toys put away before I count to 20' - make putting away into a fun game instead of a chore.

Be prepared that sometimes nothing works with a three year old though! Just be patient and realise he's learning and you have to teach - and this age that involves a lot of repetition.

Rhino94 · 04/04/2024 20:38

Twolittleloves · 04/04/2024 20:29

The issue is at that age they don't have the brain development skills to be able to regulate their behaviour and 'do better' the next time.So whilst they do need to be taught right from wrong, the discipline techniques such as the naughty step really don't work to improve behaviour- all they do is cause resentment and make a child more frustrated.

This 100 percent!
Op with how often you have to do the naughty step isn’t it obvious it’s not working? You need to remember he’s 3 and reduce your expectations on behaviour. As pp said modelling behaviour is so important especially at this age. It’s sounds like with your expectations you are just creating a viscous cycle. I also reccomed reading the book “how to talk to kids..” as pps have mentioned. It’s definitely helped me.

Needanewname42 · 04/04/2024 20:44

Op very easy to get into a negative downward spiral. Constantly saying no and giving them into rows. Then their behaviour deteriorates too.
More praise than scolding.

If he's has some behaviours you really want to stop, then work on one or two at a time. But not everything at the same time. Decide what is important to you.

If tidying up is the thing you want to work on them do the I'll help you then we can to x (BTW messy stuff like paint 🎨 leave to nursery less stressful)

RedRobyn2021 · 04/04/2024 21:03

@3yohelp1

Why?

He is 3

If he was 7 that would be a different story with this kind of boundary. But you need to consider your child's developmental stage and what you're asking isn't reasonable, that's why you're using methods which are proven not to work e.g. punishments that aren't related and the naughty step

BertieBotts · 04/04/2024 22:33

Three approaches to the refusal thing (in official terms this is called noncompliance).

You can look at the approach in e.g. the ABCs course I mentioned or it's probably the same in 123 Magic, basically any of the modern behaviourism will cover this - which has a guide to how to do time out in the most effective way - they recommend very strongly against getting into that cycle where you are physically taking them to the step as this is counterproductive. They basically say establish a norm where time out is followed by the child and to do this you use a backup sanction e.g. removal of a privilege for a short time, so screen ban or a favourite toy (not a comfort toy) goes away or something, and then don't engage further. You can also just skip the time out part and go straight for any sanction where you don't require the compliance of the child, ie it's totally outside of their control.

They do stress that time out/punishment won't actually achieve anything on its own so in order for this to work you also should be working on praising compliance (ie doing as he is told) hugely any time you see it at all and/or using some kind of reward system e.g. a sticker chart or points system specifically to target compliance. They also have some pointers on how to give instructions to children in ways which are more likely to gain compliance, which is basically stuff like using a lighter tone, being specific, offering a choice/challenge, being playful.

Second option, which overlaps a lot with the positive half of the behaviourism part is to ask in a less demanding/confrontational way e.g. make it fun (throw stuff into a box, get a toy dump truck to carry the toys, put music on and do "dance cleaning"), be playful e.g. have a competition to do it fast/pretend to be cleaning robots/play the floor is lava at the same time, present it as a logical thing e.g. "I really want to do this with you but it's going to take a while to clean this up. Do you want to help me and we'll see if we can get it done quicker?" Or present a choice e.g. we need to clean up, would you like to tidy the trains or the lego? Empathise about how he must be feeling tired and everyone doesn't like tidying up, give wishes in fantasy, do it together, do some other tidying chore while he's supposed to be doing his - loads and loads of great suggestions along these lines in How To Talk.

In addition to this add the "connect before you correct" thing as Dan Siegel/Tina Payne Bryson say. So when he's going no no no no - rather than treating that as noncompliance which must be squashed you treat that as him holding up a little sign saying "Everything is awful and I'm not OK" (which is a bit dramatic, but, y'know, three year olds. Their emotions do feel dramatic to them.) and take a moment to connect with him and see if you can figure out what's up. Quite often if they are in a bad mood they will just automatically "NOPE" at whatever you ask because it's almost like they take that instruction/reminder as an invitation to battle and it's sort of a "you're not the boss of me!!" retort. You can either do this in a silly way e.g. act mock outraged that he said no and (with a little flair/wink/smile so he doesn't think you're being serious!) threaten some dire and terrible fate, or launch into a tickle/dragon/snuggle attack or whatever works for you and you know he will find funny. You can often diffuse the tension this way and then once that has gone, he'll likely be more open to some of the other techniques like the choice or reasoning or a game or whatever. Or if you don't want to do that then try approaching with empathy as though instead of saying "No! I WON'T clean up! You can't make me!" he had burst into tears. So "Hey? What's up? You sound upset, is something wrong?" Listen and see what he says, offer validation of feelings - again, once he's said his piece he'll likely be much more open to sorting the mess whether it's a bit of a nudge from you, or a compromise offer/bargain from him, or whatever it is.

Or third option, which is a bit polar opposite to the first one - don't ask him to do stuff if he's going to refuse, or if you do ask him to do something, don't have a hardline expectation that he will do it specifically because you have asked him - ie, don't even have compliance as an expectation at all. Have the expectation/keep the value in mind (in the case of tidying, the value might be respecting stuff/taking good care of posessions/keeping the house usable by everyone/sharing household responsibilities/maybe a mixture of all these things.) But not compliance.

When you drop compliance as a goal you get less of the random butting heads just for the sake of butting heads - and when you do encounter that then you treat it as a sign that he's a bit out of sorts (basically like the second option, but rather than being "connect before you correct" the aim is literally just connect - trust that the "correction" will work itself out in time. If it happens in that moment naturally, then win win.

In terms of how to get the other expectations met which aren't compliance related - you have so many tools to do this which don't involve trying to force compliance. Modelling, being explicit in what you're doing when you model, ie not waiting until he goes to bed to tidy up, maybe explaining as you go, helping him in his tasks, offering him the option to help you in all different tasks (not only insisting that he does his/you do yours), breaking things down into smaller steps or aspects and working on them one by one, thinking about the skills involved in the thing he's not doing as well with and working on those, all of the positive/playful/empathetic suggestions in the previous approaches, if it's a routine kind of thing, and you're not getting a lot of success with it, look at whether it would fit better somewhere else in the routine (e.g. rather than let's all tidy up at the end of the day, can you go in and help/encourage/model tidying up little and often so it never gets into such a mess), whether you could control the environment to prevent the problem coming up as frequently (e.g. have fewer toys available - declutter, curate and/or rotate). Talking (at neutral times, ie, not as a direct attempt to persuade him) about your goals or expectations e.g. that you're trying to ensure there's always a clear path through the front room or you want to keep his books nice so they don't get broken, so he really gets that reasoning and then when you do want him to put something away you can remind him of the goal you talked about. Modelling (again, because it's probably the most important one, you cannot expect children to do something they never see you do).

Three approaches (I don't think either of them is inherently better or worse than another, they all have pros and cons) - different things work for different families. Just an idea, anyway.

BertieBotts · 04/04/2024 22:46

RedRobyn2021 · 04/04/2024 20:07

That's not a consequence, tidying toys and not getting a biscuit are not related at all. That is a punishment.

This is just splitting hairs - punishment is a type of consequence. Consequence technically means any kind of result from a behaviour, whether it comes from the environment (natural consequence) or a parent (reward, punishment) and whether it's intentional (e.g. loss of biscuit, not getting to paint) or accidental (e.g. giving attention to a behaviour you want to reduce).

Also people pretty commonly colloqually use "consequence" as a synonym for "punishment" which I'm sure you're aware of, so no need to go pulling people up on perfectly ordinary and understandable use of language.

There isn't actually any evidence showing that related consequences are any more effective than unrelated, either. It gets said a lot, and you'll probably find older posts on MN even where I've referred to this idea but it turns out it doesn't actually make any difference.

Yourethebeerthief · 04/04/2024 23:40

@BertieBotts

I agree completely. There's a fad for "natural consequences" at the moment. But that only works for some things

The natural consequences of a messy room are
a) the room is a mess, and
b) you might trip on something and break your neck.

A toddler does not care about either of these things. You could, at a push, say "well if you don't tidy then we've no space to play at xyz", and yes that can work. But if that's not enough to get toddler on board then the consequence has to change to something else that matters to them.

As I said previously in the thread my approach would be:

Me: we need to tidy everything up because it's too messy in here now. We'll tidy then we can stop for a biscuit. You tidy all the cars into this basket while I help (they have a specific task and I just blitz everything else)
Toddler: no! I don't want to!
Me: If we don't tidy, we don't have room to play with X. Let's tidy up together then we can have our biscuit.
Toddler: nooo! I don't want to tidy!!
Me: ok, I'm going to tidy now

Then proceed to tidy everything except the cars and leave the room to have a biscuit by myself. To toddler: "there's a biscuit here for you. When you've put the cars in the basket you can join me for a biscuit."

No, you don't have to go for this approach every time. I can sense my toddler's mood and most of the time he just tidies up because he's been asked to. Never more than one basket for him and a specific instruction: put all the bricks in this basket. I blitz the rest and thank him for helping me. Sometimes if he's in a cranky mood I'll use the biscuit technique. Doesn't have to be a biscuit. A smoothie, a hot milk, breadsticks. Whatever.

They key difference is "when we're done we can have a biscuit" instead of "if you don't do this you're not getting any biscuits"
If they say no, crack on with the plan: tidy up everything but leave their basket and toys for them to tidy. The biscuit is waiting for them, they know what they need to do.

Isthisexpected · 04/04/2024 23:45

Alwaysalwayscold · 03/04/2024 20:14

Sounds like you're doing all the right things then! Just keep persevering OP and it will get better.

Completely disagree. This is a particular style of parenting and isn't working at all.

Most helpful things you can do are all from PP above me:
Connect before correct
Ego versus values (does it matter?)
Co-regulate

New posts on this thread. Refresh page