To think some nurseries are pleading poverty unfairly?

[caffelattetogo]

We are currently looking at nursery for our DC and quite a few locally charge a top-up fee for funded hours. When we queried this, they said it was because the rates paid for by the government via the councils are too low.

So, I asked our council what they pay, and it's pretty much the same rate per hour as most of the local nurseries charge normally - which would usually cover their costs.

I'm hearing nationally many nurseries saying they will close if they don't charge additional fees but it seems that some are profiting by getting their full funding and top up fees. I understand that each nursery is a business and they want to make a profit, but I wish things were a bit clearer from them about why they need more.

Yawn. Do some proper research.

It's a private industry, and someone is making a lot of money somewhere. Not the local nursery staff though. I would love to see the true P&L of a nursery (ours is a local branch of a US chain)

I'd be happy to. How?

Its a business so they are allowed to make a profit

I gather the margins are fairly tight for most providers

Yes, I'd imagine most staff are on minimum wage, with some apprentices and younger staff on even less.

Haven’t voted as I’m in the middle as someone who previously worked in early years.

Some settings are truly, utterly skint. They have rubbish resources and long to replace their books, toys, etc but they can’t because they simply don’t have enough cash.

Others are loaded. It’s usually the private ones in the larger chains like this, or the ones charging well above the average. Charging top ups is greed.

It is very much dependent.

YANBU, the top up fees are a scam in many places.

I would have approached the nurseries and offered to pay the difference between their normal day rate and what the council pays them. I bet it would be much less than what they’re asking for. Would be interesting to see what they said…

Yes, I'd imagine most staff are on minimum wage, with some apprentices and younger staff on even less.

And you want to leave your baby there?

Find a child minder group.

What’s wrong with younger staff?

@caffelattetogo if some in your area charge top ups and some don't, surely you can just choose one that doesn't? And if you prefer one of the ones that does, due to better facilities etc, then presumably that is financed by the top ups? Sorry if that is not correct (my kids are no longer nursery age), but that's how it appears to me.

Of course, but I doubt the margins are that tight. Same in private care etc. No multinational corporation would invest in this if it wasn't worth their while. And there is a huge discrepancy in care costs in countries where most of the care is state funded then when mainly outsourced to private providers.

However, I have no proof! So I will give them the benefit of the doubt. I was meaning to look into the financial reports of the US company who owns our local nursery, but haven't had time to actual do it. If I ever do it I will report back!

Check companies house for profit margins on individual companies.

Can’t help but think someone is lying here and it’s most likely the council. There is no way they are paying the setting the average hourly amount. And I say that as a former childminder who accepted funding and early years professional in a private, termtime setting. The amount I/we received was pitifully low. And the wages at minimum wage level for staff who were all qualified to at least level 3.

I'm afraid unless they become state controlled or literally are 'not for profit' then there will always be some that 'try it on' especially when there is little local competition-

When we were in Denmark it was kind of relatively fixed price ( roughly 35% of UK cost) - your income was irrelevant as was age of child- don't know how they work that but it seemed much fairer and most women worked too- far less SAHM s- which meant also a bit sadly I didn't see many baby and young child activities on notice boards for those who didn't work.

What about using a childminder then?

I am offering funded hours with no top up. I do only provide full day care as I have always done but this suits most people anyway. I don't do part days and provide all meals and nappies included.

This might change in the future but for now it works.

I watched a documentary on this last night, and there is a shortfall of between £2-£5 per hour per child just for basic running costs. I’m not sure of nursery classes and ratios, but say they have the standard 30 kids like me ds nursery, that’s a £150 loss per class per hour. There’s 2 classes of 30 funded places in my ds nursery, so they’re losing £300 an hour without top ups from parents

I think it's irrelevant. As people have said, this is a private business, and so what they charge is up to them. Personally, I think £18 for the dog food that I paid £9 for a year ago is extortionate given that Ocado are in profit. But heh ho, they are a business and exist to make profit. Just like most nurseries now.

But as a matter of interest a council local to me has just closed all their remaining nurseries because they can't afford them because they don't run them like private businesses, so perhaps that says something? They paid their staff a living wage, had decent (but not overly generous) terms of employment and decent staffing ratios etc.

As a parent, I don't agree that charging top-ups is greed if the extra is spent on new resources or the cost of paying staff more than minimum wage on the minimum ratio of staff to children. I know that's how the top-ups are spent at my DS's nursery and so I don't mind paying them (broadly speaking).

Quoted the wrong person, meant @strawberryjeans

It’s not just about that though. NMW has gone up so they have to pass on staff costs.

The local councils are allowed to keep a certain percentage of the money given by the government for the funded hours so the amount the government give isn't actually how much each setting receives

The new funding stuff is beyond a joke but the large nursery chains make an absolute fortune, no doubt about that. Have a look into the owners of the three or five biggest chains in the country. They are not poor.

IIRC yhere are 1,000 fewer childcare places than there were due to places being forced to close and 1 in 4 nurseries thinks they may need to close in the next 12 months. I wouldn’t be too sure that your calculations are correct and that top ups are greed.

Around here many nurseries are going bust all over the place. Private nursery places are extremely hard to come by. If there was a mountain of gold to be made as you suspect, surely they wouldn’t be closing?