What makes you middle class?

[Singlemum90]

So a comment from my mother a few years ago has stuck with me ever since then really. When I was no longer a single mum, and found myself a little less skint, she said 'oh it's so good now you're just a nice middle class mum, I'm so proud of you'

Aside from her clearly looking down at me before this, and deciding class was what defined how she felt about me- I have often wondered what made her decide I was middle class at this point.

How do you define it? (I feel it's very subjective) Is it what family you are born into? Your income?(And what income makes the 'classes'? Is it a specific job type? The way you stick your finger out when you drink tea?
Or is it just a shitty way to divide people and how they feel about themselves?

As per my previous post, I think people who can't believe class divides still exist and that people want to discuss class are usually people who don't leave their class bubble. It should be discussed because real barriers still exist in employment for example if you have the wrong class accent it's more likely to exclude you from certain environments than if your skin is not white

For example I work in an industry that has lots of training schemes and positive discrimination for people from underrepresented ethnic groups (as it should) but white working class people are entirely absent from its work force

The NRS social grade scales are pretty good for most purposes, OP.
I'm a C1. That's lower middle class.
I generally work office jobs, that are technically skilled but not managerial. My husband does similar.
We own a modest ex council house and can afford to run a cheap car. Kids are dressed Primark or supermarket clothes.
We can afford a holiday in the UK and kids activities within reason.

Isn’t that the readership survey and for publications to see who reads their stuff? It doesn’t attribute class? Or do you have a link where it does?

If you define class by job type or income level you ignore the inequality caused by certain types of people being excluded from certain workplaces because of their accent, the way they do their hair and make up, all those soft markers for class that no one likes to discuss but everyone adheres to religiously

@Ruminate2much Your post resonated with me. Even now, in my 70s, I feel like a mixture, because although we’ve never had much money, my father was privately educated, from a well to do professional family. Things went wrong, and there was no money. I’m Scottish, I sound Scottish, but have no strong local dialect. I have no higher level qualifications, flunked school, but I had a couple of minor management roles.

DH had a varied working life, very W/C in some respects, very much not in others. I feel classless too, with friends from very different walks of life, nice people! Our adult children are in high earning, professional roles. We do own our small home, (with a sitting room 😀) and I’m content with where we are, but I couldn’t place myself firmly in any class over my lifetime.

Well, sociologists generally define it by job type and income level.
The accent thing is complex, as it's often regional. Re soft markers - I'm not disagreeing with you, but can honestly say that I have no idea whatsoever what working class or middle hairstyles are?! None whatsoever.
I'm definitely not in a bubble. I've done a lot of zero hours agency work and worked with many traditionally working class people as well as middle class graduates.
I do regard myself as classless. I really do. As mentioned up thread, my parents are Northern Irish. I was actually born there, but lived in England from age two. I do think my Northern Irish roots complicate it somewhat, as the kind of class markers you describe are largely English.

Your mother has confused class with money OP. It is a subjective and dated term and can be used in a positive or negative way.

Often people who are ‘nouveau riche’ say someone who is self-made or who has married into money often brags and talks a lot about how how much they earn and how much things cost etc. They might have done well and have a high income now but class is about much more than money. Similarly, someone can be seen to be middle class but have very little disposable income and or belongings.

To me class is much more than money. It can be influenced by a number of things and it is about more than money. It can mainly be influenced by education but it is about views, beliefs, values, interests, friends, where you live etc etc.

Someone could drive a Porsche, wear expensive clothes and or jewellery and still be crass, cheap and still be seen as working class.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels like this. I wonder if our Celtic roots contribute too?
I actually grew up in England from the age of two. But very Northern Irish family 😊

As others have said if you’re caring about whether you’re middle class then you probably are. Working class don’t give it a thought and nor does anyone upper class — those two classes tend to be comfortable in themselves without something to “prove.”

I didn't say that wealth and class were not linked, I said that rich people were not automatically upper class. Do you really not understand the difference between old money and new money? Plus, if you are born upper class and wealthy and somehow lose your money, that doesn't make you automatically working or lower middle class.

Nobody has said rich people are upper class. However, the Kardashians are very much old money so by that metric they are upper class then?

Why not?

@Ruminate2much there is definitely a class system in NI. And it's starker and simpler than the English landscape. If your NI parents were MC you are MC. In England, MC people might not identify you as MC though because many see all Irish people as WC. They're wrong of course. My parents were Irish and both grew up in houses which had live in servants. That, for me, is the definition of MC. Although I have a normal job and lifestyle now, I'm still MC because of my family history. See West, East and North Belfast for WC examples (in some cases an even lower category of non-working class is needed!)

Middle class to me looks like:

• Your parents and grandparents went to university and were things like engineers, judges, senior military officers, university professors, doctors, etc
• Lots of extracurriculars as a child
• Childhood of travel to ‘interesting’ destinations both at home and abroad, never package holidays, often centered around some kind of cultural or athletic outdoor activity
• Multilingualism and musical instruments
• Disdain for anything considered highly processed or packaged for the masses (food, holidays, home decor, bestseller books, pop music, etc)
• Family meals sitting down at the table, children encouraged to participate in conversations
• Screen aversion, big bookshelves, quirky educational podcasts, documentaries, love for obscure and/or offbeat literature, FT weekend, board games
• Home ownership
• High value on outdoor activities
• High value on education for its own sake, not for the sake of employability
• Your parents and (often) grandparents are/were globally mobile and well-traveled
• Likely have inheritance coming from more than one family member
• Independent education

Very little of it actually has to do with the salary of the adult in question, but it doesn’t come without some degree of generational financial abundance.

I've lived in England since my 20s. But I felt the same where I grew up. My father's long time friends had big houses, children in private school. Some of my schoolmates got free dinners, and lived in tenements with a lavatory shared between several neighbours. There was a huge divide, and I always felt somewhere in between.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRS_social_grade#:~:text=According%20to%20Ipsos%2C%20NRS%20social,income%2C%20wealth%20or%20property%20ownership.

Ipsos says the NRS classifications don’t attribute class. They just rank according to the occupation of the ‘head of household’ (in itself fairly problematic). (It’s pretty broad-brush stuff, and if, as the Wiki entry suggests, the NRS classifications are sometimes adapted for Ireland by the inclusion of a new letter, F, to farmers and agricultural workers, it really doesn’t work terribly well, as it would put farmers, big and small, at the bottom of the classification.)

I agree there's a class system in NI, but it's different. I've been exposed to both systems.
My parents backgrounds were a mixture of working and middle class, which adds to the confusion!
I definitely don't think many sociologists would see me as solidly middle class, for all sorts of reasons. But, I'd feel disingenuous describing myself as working class.
I do feel in between/classless. That's my lived experience.

I’m a higher rate tax payer now, but I’ll always feel working class

Out of curiosity, why is that people are often horrified to be seen as middle class?
It's nothing to be either ashamed of, or proud of, surely?
As explained, I see myself as classless. Or a mix. But, if people saw me as middle class, though it'd be inaccurate, it wouldn't offend me.

@Ruminate2much yes I think you get a free pass if you're not English. In my kids' school the mc parents and dc form one group and the wc form another (all v similar incomes) and then there are east European and Asian families who effortlessly move between groups. In particular I find the wc parents are either outright unfriendly to me or only friendly up to a point. I will never be able to join their circle because I have a different accent, different interests and different priorities and that clearly makes them want to keep me at arms length.

Round here wc women nearly all have long blonde straight hair, wouldn't dream of going grey, they dress v well although not in clothes I would wear, acrylic nails, a full face of make up, heels etc on the school run. They use fillers a lot. They look sexy and take a pride in that. Mc women wear trainers, minimal make up, may have naturally blonde hair but wouldn't tend to bleach it.

They aren't old money, I don't think. Kim and the others weren't rich growing up, the Jenners maybe a bit more because of their father. Kim actually worked for Paris Hilton, who is genuine old money.

You must be a super fan. How working class of you 😉😉.

So is Paris Hilton middle class then? She’s every bit as klassy as the Kardashians are.

It seems you are wrong anyway. They were wealthy before they even went to America. Robert was friends with OJ Simpson, remember. Being the child of a lawyer is certainly middle class.

“The Kardashian family are originally speculated to be descendants of wealthy Armenian immigrants and their father Robert was a very successful lawyer known for his participation in the O.J. Simpson trial. As a wealthy lawyer the entire family grew accustomed to growing up in an extravagant lifestyle. However, Kris and Robert divorced in 1991 and she then married Olympic athlete Caitlyn Jenner shortly afterwards.”

Paris Hilton is upper class. She reminds me a lot of girls I went to school with.

This is what I don’t get about your stance though. Why is she upper class and the Kardashians are working class? It’s like you think you somehow decide who is upper/middle/lower class based on absolutely no consistent measures of class.

I bet I am at least as educated as you are. I probably earn similarly to you too. Yet you have decided you are not just middle class, but upper middle class, based on the fact you have “middle class tastes” and I’m working class because I like the Kardashians (when actually I don’t even like the Kardashians 😂😂)

Liking ballet and opera -and being uptight doesn’t make you middle class. I am possibly middle class based on the fact I’m fairly highly educated (2x degrees and a postgraduate), I work in a professional job, I own a home, blah blah blah. But I’m not into ballet or opera and I’m quite “forward thinking”/sex positive - so does that mean I’m working class? Or does it just mean I’ve not got a stick up my arse? Who knows.

IMO it’s more of an age thing, I bet you are a good bit older than me. I can tell by your outlook.