To think that improving communication with my parents is impossible

[toomanynumbers]

Hi, sorry this is a really long one, but I think there's a lot of relevant information to add and the examples are important.

Also, I know this wouldn't bother a lot of people/looks silly/childish but it's really affecting me. Please be kind.

For as long as I can remember our family has been terrible at communicating. I have grown up with constant battles to speak, interrupting, poor listening, regular arguments, and any conflict escalating to screaming, yelling and crying from everyone. I'm 38 and this still happens regularly. It is completely dysfunctional. It also happens in public when my mum doesn't get her way and I find it excruciating.

My parents had difficult childhoods. We all suffer from various mental health issues, particularly my mum who is resistant to treatment (frustrating as when she takes medication she is a different person and life is better for everyone). My parents are a 'team' and Dad will excuse or minimise Mum's behaviour to not rock the boat. I also have ADHD and they won't consider this in communication, e.g. will interrupt/overwhelm me and then be angry when my ADHD affects me. I am not making excuses and an acutely aware of and feel immensely guilty that my condition impacts others, but it is not something I can always control despite significant efforts. I recognise that I have and do play a role in this, and am working very hard on changing that.

A classic example of a fight would be:

Me: "I was thinking that instead of using that money for X we could think about Y because if we..."
Mum: "but we are doing X and we said that..."
Me: "I haven't finished, please don't interrupt"
Mum: "NO NO I'M TALKING"
Me: "but I haven't finished"
Mum: "NO NO I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SAY AND I SAID..."
Me: "but you're not listening and just interrupting me"
Mum: "NO IM NOT!!!"
Me: "You are!"
(Sometimes we then get to this point) Mum: "fine, say it then!! (but clearly not wanting to listen and looking deliberately annoyed)
Me: (I then finish what I'm saying as quickly as possible)
Mum: "Have you finished? CAN I TALK NOW??"

If I then say that I'm upset with how the conversation went, mum will gaslight me and say it never happened that way and she responded in a completely different way. If I say she's wrong, or say she behaved badly, she will start crying or screaming and walk off saying noone cares about her and how disrespectful I am. Usually this then ends up in a 2-3 hour scenario of me being upset, my Mum bashing about the house shouting, and/or me going into a different room and hearing them talking about me (I find this really upsetting). I then ask to speak about it and ask us all to apologise and identify where we all went wrong, and I get told to just leave it.

It sounds ridiculous. I tell my self each time I'm going to stay calm but I just can't navigate it. I find it extremely difficult watching and hearing them be so dismissive of me talking, blatantly lying, and being so unaware of their behaviour.

I have had ongoing counselling and am working very hard to identify how I contribute to this dysfunctional relationship. I am getting a lot better at either acting in the moment or reflecting and apologising or asking us all to revisit what happened and identify how we can make it better. I have told them this, and I have asked them to also reflect on their behaviour. They seem incapable of or unwilling to do this. I feel like I'm going mad. For example, I'll say to my mum 'I found that conversation hard because you interrupted me, which meant that I didn't feel listened to' and she will instantly say 'I didn't interrupt BUT... to which I will reply, 'you did, can you please just reflect on that and not get defensive' to which she will aggressively say 'I'M NOT BEING DEFENSIVE!!'. I would love more than anything for mum to say something like 'Sorry I interrupted, I didn't like what you were saying and I'll try not to do it again if you tell me I'm interrupting'.

I just cannot fix this myself, and I also cannot accept it. It is really affecting my health. I am trying so hard to work on it but I cannot seem to employ any of the counselling/reflective work as it gets completely ignored and they respond even worse. I have tried tactics like letting them finish and then starting to start my point again but I'll get told I'm going on and being ridiculous.

I am realising that a lot of my poor mental health is exasperated by them and linked to my past. I am beginning to resent my Mum for not getting help with her depression and my Dad for always picking her side and minimising her behaviour. She can be literally screaming and bashing about because of a completely reasonable action like calmly asking if she's ready to leave and it'll be my fault for asking. Dad will then excuse it because she's stressed, whilst completely disregarding the impact on me.

Sorry that was so long and includes a lot of venting....I am just looking for some advice as to how to deal with this because I can't seem to be able to improve it.

Thanks everyone.

Do you still live at home? I’m confused by the ‘we’ when talking about money, do you have joint finances?

To be honest OP, I think you just need to accept that you all have different styles of communication and that while you may be working on addressing your issues, they are not necessarily going to change just because you want them to.
Do you live with them? If not, then maybe try spending less time together, put some distance between you and see if that helps.

You said you are working on your own reactions with therapy, which is helpful. However you can only address your own behaviour - they are adults, and as difficult as it is you cannot change them. I think a bit of acceptance is key here. Either walk away or distance yourself a bit.

Also, just to say from the way you have described things in your OP, it sounds as if you want them to come around to your way of thinking, as in 'the right way'. But there is no right way, you are both right, just different.
It does sound a bit like parent/teenager dynamic, you need to let go and accept that they deal with things differently than you.

OP is it possible that your mother also has ADHD? It sounds like you are quite alike really in the way you communicate, except that you have some self-awareness probably due to your therapy.

Also, I can usually tell when someone has had therapy as they use therapy-speak, and to be quite honest if someone asked me to "revisit what happened and identify how we can make it better" I'd most likely tell them to feck right off. You can't change other people, only how you react to them.

If your DM irritates you to this degree then I think you need to put a little distance between you.

I don't no. This was just a made up example.

I am not sure. I think my Dad has it, which

Regardless of ADHD, which I am slightly regretting mentioning now, this is just a completely unhealthy way to communicate.

It is frustrating that getting therapy to address issues seems completely pointless if by using any of the skills/addressing anything would lead people to just tell you to feck off. What other approach could I take?

The problem is that I cannot deal with this reaction from them. Two parties are involved in talking, and if they are unwilling to work on this the only option is to be act exactly how they want (e.g. let them interrupt, completely agree with them, not saying anything they don't like) which I don't see is possible in any sort of problem solving situation.

Unfortunately at this point in my life my parents are still a huge source of support for me, but also a cause of distress, so I feel very trapped in this process. Hence trying to make it better for all of us.

My dad actually mentioned family therapy which I think would be really helpful.

You have to accept that you cannot change other people.
So the only options left are to put up with it or distance yourself from them. I would try and see them less of if this is not possible only talk about the most neutral things weather/tv etc to try and minimise your stress.

Sorry @Wotsdestory I do agree in terms of our past communication that we were similar. But now we don't communicate the same anymore because I'm aware of this behaviour and actively stop doing it. E.g. I have stopped interrupting (or at least immediately stop if I can't control the initial impulse) but they cannot see this. They bring up the past as reasons to continue to be behave badly and will cherry pick situations. My mum can be incredibly rude and mean.

I am so desperate to change this but maybe they are too old to be able to do this. My dad and I spoke for an hour the other day about being defensive and dismissive and not always using 'but' and every single reply was defensive. He wants to change too and recognises that we all need to work on it but it's like he cannot identify or understand what he needs to change too.

I am really looking for some advice to try and move forward with this besides just either staying the same/accepting it or cutting a lot of ties with my parents, both of which options don't seem possible.

There definitely is this teenager dynamic. My mum is adamant that as I am younger I must respect them and they are automatically right, and talks to me like I am a child who needs putting in their place. I don't think it is acceptable to treat a 38 year old like a child!

I am so sad about this. I try so hard to work on myself, to find solutions and problem solve which is so hard. But when I put any of this 'work' into action, it makes it worse.

I don't actually speak to my identical twin anymore because through therapy I put some minimal boundaries in place and she saw that as a challenge to bully me. It is so sad.

You can't control anyone except maybe yourself.

Your therapist should have warned you that any change you undergo will likely cause people around you to try and force you back into the box they've always known you as. I.e. you changing makes their lives more difficult so they won't be happy or open to it. They liked it when they could control and manipulate you and get their own way 🤷‍♀️ they haven't supported you thus far, ain't likely to start now.

Some people are just nasty arseholes whether related to you or not.

Come and find us over on the "Stately Homes" thread.

Op, you really need to accept reality and fully accept that your parents are never, ever going to change. Why do you stay when conversations turn into arguments? That should be your cue to walk right out the door. It takes two to row and you're participating in it.

You need to face facts and severely limit the time you spend with them. That's the only solution that will work.

Jeez, sounds like my mum. Is the interrupting done through firecely pursed lips or gritted teeth?

I am 52 and no younger sibs, so pretty sure we don't share a mother.

I agree with PP, that I am surprised your therapist didn't warn you that even if you want to change and improve, it doesn't mean others will change too.

About your age I emotionally detached from my parents to be honest. I didn't want to repeat their behaviours, yes, they "tried their best" but some of their best was resolutely wrong, however you dress it up.

Mum's reaction to me having counsellingwas a passive aggressive "Oh I suppose its all my fault, whatever it is."

I suspect you will never hange or improve their communication. Ever. You are likely too flogging a very, very dead horse.

I would suggest stop trying but just don't engage. Grey rock. Don't discuss anything of importance with them.

This may not be viable as you say you need them for support at the moment. Can you getvthat support elsewhere. Can you explain a little as we maybe able to help how to navigate this without you flogging horses.

You can't change their behaviour.

You can only change yours, how you approach them, how you respond.

If you are consistent, they may alter their behaviour in response, but it's likely to be limited to specific contexts and unlikely to be a realisation that they're wrong.

I have done this with my Father - if he starts making fat jokes or talking over me, we just leave.

It means setting ourselves up so that we CAN always 'just leave' without any drama or fuss or unpleasantness. So there's no slamming out, there's no debate or 'if you're going to be like that'...

It is simply ... 'Ok well we've got to be off now so we'll see you another time', said in a pleasant, casual tone... and off we fuck.

It also means my DP had to be on board that if I say we're going, we are going immediately.

Same sort of thing applies over the phone, if he starts being obnoxious, I say 'ok well I have to go now Dad, bye then...' and hang up.

It has worked, in that he curbs himself around me - but he is still an obnoxious arsehole with other people, he delights in winding my sister up because he's guaranteed an exciting and entertaining reaction from her. It hasn't changed HIM and he absolutely would not admit that he's wrong in any way. It has only changed very specific behaviours around me and ONLY where he is aware I can just piss off.

@WiddlinDiddlin thanks, I have thought about removing myself and I'm going to try and do this more. Do you tell your father why you're leaving? I've been advised to do that when setting boundaries but I'm afraid to.

Sometimes it's not always that simple, e.g. we'll be in a discussion like when we're leaving the house, which is something that needs to happen. If I walked away when I was screamed at I would be the one with the problem/the one who ruins plans. My mum also does a huge amount of projecting so often it's not about the issue but something else that is out of my hands.

@ChangeTheChopper a lot of what you say really resonates with me, particularly my mum saying it's then all her fault in a way that insinuates I am being horrible. When she said "ok it's all my fault" she doesn't mean that at all, or recognises that she could be playing any part, it's just to make me feel bad. She takes everything as criticism. If she says sorry it's to make herself feel better or to shut me up so we can all 'move on' which just makes me feel completely invalidated and dismissed. This has gone on my whole life.

EVERYTHING is about her. She even turns my ADHD into being about her - we only talk about my behaviour in the way it affects them and not me. We sat down the other day to talk about how they could better understand (I've been asking for this for 10 years) and all she did was make accusations about how I do things deliberately to hurt her. Phrases like "can you help me understand why your condition makes you think it's ok to leave a plate in my house and make a mess, but you don't do that in your house?" It's very subtle but it's typical of all conversations where there is no interest in understanding my point of view or truly how I feel (even when it's specifically about me/my hurt), it's all about how she feels and how it impacts her.

It is really hard to step away/reduce contact as we are very enmeshed. For example, they help me with work (paid) - sometimes I don't have another option and they genuinely want to help. But then she is incredibly disrespectful and dismissive of my position, despite me having a conversation beforehand about how important it is to follow my lead. Imagine if I was a store manager, and she was hired to help stock the shelves when staff were sick, but then on the day won't be told what goes. If I challenge it she will refuse to speak to me or yell at me in front of people that I'm being disrespectful, and carry on doing the job wrong. She will then start crying that she just wants to help and all she wants is for me to be happy and that I'm so ungrateful and don't respect her.

I have realised that they will help and be there for me but only on their terms. I KNOW I shouldn't work with them or have this close of a relationship with them, but it can be the difference between paying my mortgage and not or actually functioning in life or not. I don't have anyone else. It's so easy on paper to just 'step away' but for right or wrong this is my life right now and the consequences of cutting them off are far worse than continuing with this. It's like asking you to cut off your arm or your leg.

Which is why I'm trying for fix things - none of us are happy. I just can't understand how they can say they also don't want to work on it but then are only interested in blaming me. I often feel ganged up on, bullied and gaslit. I have already realised that I already grit my teeth/don't express myself/don't say things a huge amount of the time for fear of things blowing up. Yet they can say whatever they like to me - mum often says I don't care about her, but when I once said it appeared like she didn't care about my ADHD because she chooses to play Candy Crush instead of read a guide I sent (I've been asking her to read it for the past year), I am being horrible/how dare I. I mean it's the truth, at that time, playing a game was more important. But being called out on any bad behaviour is me being horrible to her.

Sorry, this is such a long reply. I am getting stuff off my chest. It's so hard to accept this - I have already lost my sister, I have some of the same issues with my partner, and I feel so incredibly alone. I am not strong enough or well enough to cope on my own, and I would rather not be here if that was the case. I have been feeling suicidal at the thought of this, which is why I am so desperate to fix things.

You said that you don’t live with them so can’t you put some distance between you? Low contact would stress you less as it is unlikely they will change a dynamic that has been place for decades.

I really wish I could but for various reasons they're a big support to me. We've always been incredibly close and enmeshed and I realise I have a different relationship with my parents than lots of people do. We've been in this dynamic for so long and so it's very difficult to just change how I feel about my parents. I think for a long time I thought this was all normal, but from spending more time with friends/partners as an adult I've realised how bad it all is.

It is frustrating that getting therapy to address issues seems completely pointless if by using any of the skills/addressing anything would lead people to just tell you to feck off. What other approach could I take?

Could you try and rephrase things? I often find when people use 'therapy speak' it can come across as rather condescending. "I've been in therapy and this is what you need to do to change"

Also you say this about your mum It's very subtle but it's typical of all conversations where there is no interest in understanding my point of view or truly how I feel (even when it's specifically about me/my hurt), it's all about how she feels and how it impacts her. are you trying to understand their point of view? What was in the 'guide' you sent? Informative about adhd or a guide to what you want?

I'm sorry OP this sounds like a totally toxic dynamic, you all just seem to spark off eachother. My advice would be to keep going to therapy for yourself, and look for another job. Then you wouldn't be so enmeshed with them and it would be easier to set boundaries. I know it's probably a big scary change, but maybe just have a look at what's out there and apply for some jobs, you never know what will happen.

It's not the answer you want to hear, but really the only solution to this is distancing yourself from them. They are not going to change, and you seem to bring out the worst in eachother.

I get that you want to make them understand how their behaviour affects you, but it's not going to work, and you all just go round and round in circles. You are being damaged by this, you need to give yourself permission to let go.

A financial support? As they are clearly not emotionally supportive.

I’ve cut off a load of bad relationships and one thing I’ve learned is communication is a two-way street. No matter what you do, you cannot out-explain someone’s refusal to listen; having a receptive person is non-negotiable otherwise it will just not work.

This is a bigger problem than the communication (although communication contributes to it).

It's interesting that your example (even if it was made up) focused on you talking to your mum about how to spend your money. You're 38. Spend your money how you want. You don't need your mum's permission.

When you say "for various reasons they are a big support to me" it sound like you actually mean "I am so used to having them there that I don't know how I would cope without them". That's your choice. Stick with the dynamic you know, but have realised is toxic. Or actively change.

No, it's not easy. But you're not going to get anywhere by trying to talk to your parents and expecting them to change.

ADHD is hereditary. Your mum has undiagnosed ADHD.
i see the same in my husbands family. They are all so dysfunctional with terrible negative coping mechanisms that they’ll never realise my MIL’s ADHD

Thanks everyone. Yo answer a few things:

@shepherdsangeldelight you are right in that I am used to it/build things around it, expect it to be different, and get upset when it's not. But change is so hard. I struggle to be independent because of my disabilities and it's hard to say no to help/rely on existing support even if you know it will cause problems in other areas. I just don't always have the choice and whilst I pray it will be different each time, sometimes I treat the upset that comes with it is almost part of the deal. The money thing was just an example for this post, not real life as they have no input into finances. Sorry for not being clear.

@HornyHornersPinkyWinky sadly I think I may have to look at giving up my freelance work. It is my dream, I'm good at it, and it is my way out of the 9-5 which I can't do. But I think the major issue is since I changed my work, got a house and a dog, (and an emotionally unavailable partner), life itself has become a whole lot harder. People with ADHD will understand and recognise the overwhelm and executive dysfunction but it's extremely difficult for other people to understand. So I continue to rely on the support my parents offer because I can't imagine having to take on even more.

@Meowandthen they do help me financially in terms of they help me with work. It's something I'm working on, but the example is like I'm starting out as a decorator where they have all the equipment. I can't afford to buy it all, so if I don't hire it off them for the really cheap price they offer, I can't get the work. So to say no is to sometimes have zero income. It takes time, but I'm working at it.

Funnily enough I thought they were emotionally supportive but I realise they it has to be in the away they think is right and not what I actually need. e.g. if I am depressed, my mum will tell me that I'm better off than other people. My sister has been incredibly mean to me and I have gone no contact, and they recognise this behaviour. But they will only talk about it when they want to and not when I need to. They can be extremely dismissive and invalidating but think they are being supportive.

I am working really hard at being independent in all of my life but I feel I am going backwards. I don't feel my age or that I can look after myself.

@MyGooseisTotallyLoose I try very hard to see things from other people's point of view. The ADHD stuff is just asking them to read about the condition and understand why I do certain things, in an effort to make both of our lives easier. E.g. if I don't take a plate in the kitchen when I'm visiting, it's because I don't see it because it's not part of a routine and I literally don't 'see' it. Whereas my Mum thinks I leave it because I'm lazy and don't care about her house. I can't change this behaviour, but if she made an effort to understand it she would be less angry and upset, she'd be able to ask me without feeling resentful, I'd feel less like a complete failure. I'm not asking people to just bend backwards for me. I try SO HARD, mostly got other people, to deal with it. But ADHD is a disability and an absolute curse on my life, and yes, I do hope that the people who love me would try and understand it. Our relationship would be better if they understood that I'm not doing things on purpose.

@

I'm not sure she has, but I see it in my Dad. My dad is actually quite reasonable in conversations involving other people, but cannot recognise his own behaviour. I think my mum has a lot of unhealed childhood trauma and untreated depression and she has very unhealthy coping strategies.

Regardless of whether she has ADHD, she won't get help or do any work to heal because she doesn't want to. She thinks the whole world is out to get her and she is not responsible for any of the things that happen to her. E.g. she is overweight and has unhealthy eating patterns, and blames her depression. But she won't consider changing her diet, exercising, or seek help for her depression. Any suggestions, attempts to help or identify where she could make little changes are taken as criticism and getting at her. She wants to behave and feel the way she wants and for everyone else to accommodate this, and if she then behaves badly, it's their fault.

I love my mum so so much and can't imagine my life without her, but I am starting to recognise that she really hurts me sometimes and contributes to my own unhappiness. However, I also get a lot of support. It's like an abusive relationship. I am also realising that I am resentful of her inability/unwillingness to help herself or make changes as it is just becoming so difficult to cope with. I have tried so hard to help myself mostly for the sake of others. It's been and continues to be an extremely difficult journey. Sometimes I feel like it's pointless because of everyone else making it so hard.

@toomanynumbers He was told once, and that was it.

'If you behave like that again, I will/we will just leave'.

I am absolutely certain he didn't believe me, but we did then leave and continued to do so and after a few goes round that particular merry go round, he quite clearly started to moderate himself.

In your shoes I'd pick one or two very clear boundaries - screaming at you for example - 'If you scream at me/raise your voice at me, I will leave and whatever we were going to do will have to happen without me'...

But keep it simple, say it once and then absolutely follow through, every. single. time. It's actually more effective if you don't shout back or say 'RIGHT THATS IT IM GOING NOW' but keep it chatty and 'oh dear, we'll have to go now, see you another time then?' and just... piss off!

Like training a dog (exactly like it), it is the consistent action that has an effect, not the words, the words need to be kept super simple and not be repeated or expanded upon (because getting to argue with you is reinforcing for them, even if its not what they ideally wanted it is better than you just leaving!).

If it works (and it will if you're consistent and they find the consequence of you just leaving sufficiently undesirable), then after a while you can pick another behaviour to eradicate.

It won't work for everything though, some things are too complex and nuanced for this, so think carefully about what your key boundaries are initially. I'd go with raised voices and possibly speaking over you first. No one raises their voice or talks over someone without knowing they're doing it - they know, they think they can get away with it/do not care how it makes you feel.