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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The letter J

54 replies

CampsieGlamper · 22/03/2024 08:25

As the letter H seems to be a good topic of conversation on its pronunciation(!!!) what about J?
Do you pronounce is as "jay" or as "j-eye" and is the pronunciation as hidebound in sectarianism or class-ism as poor and humble/umble H?

OP posts:
MorticiaAddamsIsMyStyleGuru · 22/03/2024 09:47

From an article from Glasgow Live. I am a Weegie and I say Jai 😁

^It could be the case that Glaswegians, and our fellow 'jai' users hang on to what was the original pronunciation of the letter J (aligned with the French pronunciation), while others have moved on to adopt and pronounce it in its modern (Anglicised) interpretation.

The Oxford English Dictionary (1st edition) states: "The name of the letter, now jay, was formerly jy, rhyming with I, and corresponding to French ji; this is still common in Scotland and elsewhere."^

According to Joan C Beal, Professor of English Language at the University of Sheffield, this may offer an explanation.

She told Glasgow Live : "The Oxford English Dictionary is right that the Scottish pronunciation would have been more common elsewhere formerly. ‘J’ has only relatively recently been considered a separate letter of the English (and Scots) alphabet.

Well into the 18th century, many dictionaries would have words beginning with the consonant ‘j’ in the same section as the vowel ‘i’. So it’s not surprising that it would be pronounced to rhyme with ‘i’."

Professor Beal also suggested it might be linked to how Scottish children are taught the alphabet in schools as it would not only stay with them but also be considered correct - and references a story that US border guards use this to discover whether someone is Canadian, as Canadians, like us, say ‘zed’ not ‘zee’ for the final letter.

We put this suggestion to a Glasgow primary school teacher, who said that kids in the city are taught the 'correct' pronunciation of the word - so perhaps, rather than the classroom, its a phenomenon that comes from the playground or indeed from the home, and how we hear our parents pronounce it.

Whatever the case, that weird 'jai' seems to be written into the DNA of Glaswegians, whether we like it or not - much to the amusement of those from outside the city.

So forget quizzes and bits of trivia - how can you really tell if someone is from Glasgow? Just ask them to say the Letter J.

Laiste · 22/03/2024 09:49

It doesn't really make any difference because the letter is never used with it's 'name' - once it's in a word it's always just j (for jam)

(we can all agree on the pronunciation of jam yes?)

MorticiaAddamsIsMyStyleGuru · 22/03/2024 09:50

www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/reason-glaswegians-say-jai-instead-25975325#:~:text=The%20Oxford%20English%20Dictionary%20(1st,common%20in%20Scotland%20and%20elsewhere.%22

I forgot the link. It is not restricted to Glasgow though. I should have said that in my original post.

Monr0e · 22/03/2024 09:54

Mt Scottish grandmother always pronounced it Jai, (to rhyme with high)
It fair flummoxed me when we moved to Scotland from England when I was 8

OkPedro · 22/03/2024 09:55

Ah love these threads people tie themselves into knots when they realise not everyone has the same accent ☺️

I'm Irish so the letter H is pronounced Haitch although strangely if I'm singing the alphabet I pronounce Haitch as Aitch..How is the letter Haitch/Aitch taught in British schools when you learn words like house home etc? I assume it's a soft H sound?

TressiliansStone · 22/03/2024 10:04

I'm just here for the "outwith" love!Easter Grin

Totally agree with PP. No idea how I ever managed before learning this perfectly expressive word.

mondaytosunday · 22/03/2024 10:15

Never heard anyone pronounce it other than jay.

BlazesBoylansHat · 22/03/2024 10:17

I think the Essex accent pronounces some of these letters differently. I know someone from there & she says the letter I as 'oy' & the letter J as joy (or similar)
I say jay

WelcomeMarch · 22/03/2024 10:24

That's fascinating. I had no idea that jai/jay were regional variants or that haitch was the main form in some regions.

(And I even knew that j and i were once considered the same letter, but the consequence hadn't occurred to me.)

IntermittentFarting · 22/03/2024 10:49

LovelyTheresa · 22/03/2024 09:28

There is no correct accent, but there is a correct pronunciation.

No, there's not. There are correct, regional variations. Anglophone dialects and accents are just as regular, rule-governed and accepted as the supposed "correct" RP version.

Its ignorance and arrogance to suggest that whole groups or countries are wrong.

IntermittentFarting · 22/03/2024 10:52

MorticiaAddamsIsMyStyleGuru · 22/03/2024 09:50

That's right. I'm from Fife which is very much Jai territory!

TheDogdidGood · 22/03/2024 10:58

WhatWouldTheDoctorDo · 22/03/2024 08:29

Jay now but Jai when I was growing up in Scotland.

That took me back! I live in Oz now but was born and lived in Scotland for half my life. I say ‘Jay’ here but I mentally ran through the alphabet and yes,,, Scotland “haitch, aye, jai…. “

TheBirdintheCave · 22/03/2024 11:03

My son does this! Drives me potty as his dad and I say 'jay' 😂He's learnt the alphabet song from his childminder and she has (some form of) London accent in which the J sounds like 'jeye'. I just gently correct him whenever I hear it as we don't live in London and would rather he spoke like us 😅

Newsenmum · 22/03/2024 11:04

IntermittentFarting · 22/03/2024 08:46

Exactly this. In my Scottish childhood we said Jai. I call the letter Jay now, but if I'm going through the alphabet, either out loud or in my head, the it's always

"Haitch eye jai kay"

having learnt it like that!

jai? Is that like jeye?

nonmerci99 · 22/03/2024 11:17

Where I live in Ayrshire, "djai" (to rhyme with "eye") is very common. It's certainly got nothing to do with education, as university-educated relatives pronounce it this way.

IntermittentFarting · 22/03/2024 11:28

Newsenmum · 22/03/2024 11:04

jai? Is that like jeye?

Yes. If by jeye you mean rhyming with eye!

BigBoysDontCry · 22/03/2024 11:31

I'd say J-eye when reciting the alphabet but other wise Jay if spelling something out like a postcode or registration number. Scottish.

MamaWillYouBuyMeAWillYouBuyMeABanana · 22/03/2024 11:31

Scottish and Jai here.

whyismysoupcold · 22/03/2024 11:32

Never heard anybody say j-eye before, but I can imagine it won't be too long before I do. Lots of people say "ok-eye" instead of "okay" around here... it hurts my ears 😂

(I'm an "ay-tch" kinda person as well)

Misthios · 22/03/2024 11:43

Really interesting that the "j-eye" pronunciation is thought to be linked with the Auld Alliance between Scotland and France. Would never have made that connection.

CutthroatDruTheViolent · 22/03/2024 11:43

I'd literally never heard of the variants in pronouncing J until today! Everyday's a school day!

Talipesmum · 22/03/2024 11:49

Ooh interesting! I’d never heard of it being pronounced other than “Jay” to rhyme with “Kay”. Brilliant to hear it rhymes with “eye” in some accents / parts of the UK. Looking forward to hearing that in the wild one day.

TabbyM · 22/03/2024 11:50

Jai (massive indicator of being brought up in West of Scotland)!

Swearwolf · 22/03/2024 11:53

Jai is just parts of Scotland!

NoAprilFool · 22/03/2024 11:57

I’m Scottish (Highlands) and have always pronounced it Jay.

outwith is a brilliant word which I use regularly

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