Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?

1000 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/03/2024 09:19

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

10 JUNE 2020
J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues

Warning: The below content is not appropriate for children. Please check with an adult before you read this page. To go back to the children’s page, please click heree_.

This isn’t an easy piece to write, for reasons that will shortly become clear, but I know it’s time to explain myself on an issue surrounded by toxicity. I write this without any desire to add to that toxicity.

For people who don’t know: last December I tweeted my support for Maya Forstater, a tax specialist who’d lost her job for what were deemed ‘transphobic’ tweets. She took her case to an employment tribunal, asking the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected in law. Judge Tayler ruled that it wasn’t.

My interest in trans issues pre-dated Maya’s case by almost two years, during which I followed the debate around the concept of gender identity closely. I’ve met trans people, and read sundry books, blogs and articles by trans people, gender specialists, intersex people, psychologists, safeguarding experts, social workers and doctors, and followed the discourse online and in traditional media. On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself, but on another, it’s intensely personal, as I’m about to explain.

All the time I’ve been researching and learning, accusations and threats from trans activists have been bubbling in my Twitter timeline. This was initially triggered by a ‘like’. When I started taking an interest in gender identity and transgender matters, I began screenshotting comments that interested me, as a way of reminding myself what I might want to research later. On one occasion, I absent-mindedly ‘liked’ instead of screenshotting. That single ‘like’ was deemed evidence of wrongthink, and a persistent low level of harassment began.

Months later, I compounded my accidental ‘like’ crime by following Magdalen Berns on Twitter. Magdalen was an immensely brave young feminist and lesbian who was dying of an aggressive brain tumour. I followed her because I wanted to contact her directly, which I succeeded in doing. However, as Magdalen was a great believer in the importance of biological sex, and didn’t believe lesbians should be called bigots for not dating trans women with penises, dots were joined in the heads of twitter trans activists, and the level of social media abuse increased.

I mention all this only to explain that I knew perfectly well what was going to happen when I supported Maya. I must have been on my fourth or fifth cancellation by then. I expected the threats of violence, to be told I was literally killing trans people with my hate, to be called cunt and bitch and, of course, for my books to be burned, although one particularly abusive man told me he’d composted them.

What I didn’t expect in the aftermath of my cancellation was the avalanche of emails and letters that came showering down upon me, the overwhelming majority of which were positive, grateful and supportive. They came from a cross-section of kind, empathetic and intelligent people, some of them working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria and trans people, who’re all deeply concerned about the way a socio-political concept is influencing politics, medical practice and safeguarding.

They’re worried about the dangers to young people, gay people and about the erosion of women’s and girl’s rights. Above all, they’re worried about a climate of fear that serves nobody – least of all trans youth – well.

I’d stepped back from Twitter for many months both before and after tweeting support for Maya, because I knew it was doing nothing good for my mental health. I only returned because I wanted to share a free children’s book during the pandemic. Immediately, activists who clearly believe themselves to be good, kind and progressive people swarmed back into my timeline, assuming a right to police my speech, accuse me of hatred, call me misogynistic slurs and, above all – as every woman involved in this debate will know – TERF.

If you didn’t already know – and why should you? – ‘TERF’ is an acronym coined by trans activists, which stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. In practice, a huge and diverse cross-section of women are currently being called TERFs and the vast majority have never been radical feminists. Examples of so-called TERFs range from the mother of a gay child who was afraid their child wanted to transition to escape homophobic bullying, to a hitherto totally unfeminist older lady who’s vowed never to visit Marks & Spencer again because they’re allowing any man who says they identify as a woman into the women’s changing rooms. Ironically, radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary – they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.

But accusations of TERFery have been sufficient to intimidate many people, institutions and organisations I once admired, who’re cowering before the tactics of the playground. ‘They’ll call us transphobic!’ ‘They’ll say I hate trans people!’ What next, they’ll say you’ve got fleas? Speaking as a biological woman, a lot of people in positions of power really need to grow a pair (which is doubtless literally possible, according to the kind of people who argue that clownfish prove humans aren’t a dimorphic species).

So why am I doing this? Why speak up? Why not quietly do my research and keep my head down?

Well, I’ve got five reasons for being worried about the new trans activism, and deciding I need to speak up.

Firstly, I have a charitable trust that focuses on alleviating social deprivation in Scotland, with a particular emphasis on women and children. Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.

The second reason is that I’m an ex-teacher and the founder of a children’s charity, which gives me an interest in both education and safeguarding. Like many others, I have deep concerns about the effect the trans rights movement is having on both.

The third is that, as a much-banned author, I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

Most people probably aren’t aware – I certainly wasn’t, until I started researching this issue properly – that ten years ago, the majority of people wanting to transition to the opposite sex were male. That ratio has now reversed. The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.
The same phenomenon has been seen in the US. In 2018, American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:
‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’
Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’
Her paper caused a furore. She was accused of bias and of spreading misinformation about transgender people, subjected to a tsunami of abuse and a concerted campaign to discredit both her and her work. The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it. However, her career took a similar hit to that suffered by Maya Forstater. Lisa Littman had dared challenge one of the central tenets of trans activism, which is that a person’s gender identity is innate, like sexual orientation. Nobody, the activists insisted, could ever be persuaded into being trans.

The argument of many current trans activists is that if you don’t let a gender dysphoric teenager transition, they will kill themselves. In an article explaining why he resigned from the Tavistock (an NHS gender clinic in England) psychiatrist Marcus Evans stated that claims that children will kill themselves if not permitted to transition do not ‘align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.’

The writings of young trans men reveal a group of notably sensitive and clever people. The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.

When I read about the theory of gender identity, I remember how mentally sexless I felt in youth. I remember Colette’s description of herself as a ‘mental hermaphrodite’ and Simone de Beauvoir’s words: ‘It is perfectly natural for the future woman to feel indignant at the limitations posed upon her by her sex. The real question is not why she should reject them: the problem is rather to understand why she accepts them.’
As I didn’t have a realistic possibility of becoming a man back in the 1980s, it had to be books and music that got me through both my mental health issues and the sexualised scrutiny and judgement that sets so many girls to war against their bodies in their teens. Fortunately for me, I found my own sense of otherness, and my ambivalence about being a woman, reflected in the work of female writers and musicians who reassured me that, in spite of everything a sexist world tries to throw at the female-bodied, it’s fine not to feel pink, frilly and compliant inside your own head; it’s OK to feel confused, dark, both sexual and non-sexual, unsure of what or who you are.

I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria. Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people.’ I have: in addition to a few younger people, who were all adorable, I happen to know a self-described transsexual woman who’s older than I am and wonderful. Although she’s open about her past as a gay man, I’ve always found it hard to think of her as anything other than a woman, and I believe (and certainly hope) she’s completely happy to have transitioned. Being older, though, she went through a long and rigorous process of evaluation, psychotherapy and staged transformation. The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.
We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else.

I’ve read all the arguments about femaleness not residing in the sexed body, and the assertions that biological women don’t have common experiences, and I find them, too, deeply misogynistic and regressive. It’s also clear that one of the objectives of denying the importance of sex is to erode what some seem to see as the cruelly segregationist idea of women having their own biological realities or – just as threatening – unifying realities that make them a cohesive political class. The hundreds of emails I’ve received in the last few days prove this erosion concerns many others just as much. It isn’t enough for women to be trans allies. Women must accept and admit that there is no material difference between trans women and themselves.

But, as many women have said before me, ‘woman’ is not a costume. ‘Woman’ is not an idea in a man’s head. ‘Woman’ is not a pink brain, a liking for Jimmy Choos or any of the other sexist ideas now somehow touted as progressive. Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.

Which brings me to the fifth reason I’m deeply concerned about the consequences of the current trans activism.

I’ve been in the public eye now for over twenty years and have never talked publicly about being a domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor. This isn’t because I’m ashamed those things happened to me, but because they’re traumatic to revisit and remember. I also feel protective of my daughter from my first marriage. I didn’t want to claim sole ownership of a story that belongs to her, too. However, a short while ago, I asked her how she’d feel if I were publicly honest about that part of my life, and she encouraged me to go ahead.

I’m mentioning these things now not in an attempt to garner sympathy, but out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.
I managed to escape my first violent marriage with some difficulty, but I’m now married to a truly good and principled man, safe and secure in ways I never in a million years expected to be. However, the scars left by violence and sexual assault don’t disappear, no matter how loved you are, and no matter how much money you’ve made. My perennial jumpiness is a family joke – and even I know it’s funny – but I pray my daughters never have the same reasons I do for hating sudden loud noises, or finding people behind me when I haven’t heard them approaching.

If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read about a trans woman dying at the hands of a violent man, you’d find solidarity and kinship. I have a visceral sense of the terror in which those trans women will have spent their last seconds on earth, because I too have known moments of blind fear when I realised that the only thing keeping me alive was the shaky self-restraint of my attacker.

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.

On Saturday morning, I read that the Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one. To use a very contemporary word, I was ‘triggered’. Ground down by the relentless attacks from trans activists on social media, when I was only there to give children feedback about pictures they’d drawn for my book under lockdown, I spent much of Saturday in a very dark place inside my head, as memories of a serious sexual assault I suffered in my twenties recurred on a loop. That assault happened at a time and in a space where I was vulnerable, and a man capitalised on an opportunity. I couldn’t shut out those memories and I was finding it hard to contain my anger and disappointment about the way I believe my government is playing fast and loose with womens and girls’ safety.

Late on Saturday evening, scrolling through children’s pictures before I went to bed, I forgot the first rule of Twitter – never, ever expect a nuanced conversation – and reacted to what I felt was degrading language about women. I spoke up about the importance of sex and have been paying the price ever since. I was transphobic, I was a cunt, a bitch, a TERF, I deserved cancelling, punching and death. You are Voldemort said one person, clearly feeling this was the only language I’d understand.

It would be so much easier to tweet the approved hashtags – because of course trans rights are human rights and of course trans lives matter – scoop up the woke cookies and bask in a virtue-signalling afterglow. There’s joy, relief and safety in conformity. As Simone de Beauvoir also wrote, “… without a doubt it is more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one’s liberation; the dead, too, are better suited to the earth than the living.”
Huge numbers of women are justifiably terrified by the trans activists; I know this because so many have got in touch with me to tell their stories. They’re afraid of doxxing, of losing their jobs or their livelihoods, and of violence.

But endlessly unpleasant as its constant targeting of me has been, I refuse to bow down to a movement that I believe is doing demonstrable harm in seeking to erode ‘woman’ as a political and biological class and offering cover to predators like few before it. I stand alongside the brave women and men, gay, straight and trans, who’re standing up for freedom of speech and thought, and for the rights and safety of some of the most vulnerable in our society: young gay kids, fragile teenagers, and women who’re reliant on and wish to retain their single sex spaces. Polls show those women are in the vast majority, and exclude only those privileged or lucky enough never to have come up against male violence or sexual assault, and who’ve never troubled to educate themselves on how prevalent it is.

The one thing that gives me hope is that the women who can protest and organise, are doing so, and they have some truly decent men and trans people alongside them. Political parties seeking to appease the loudest voices in this debate are ignoring women’s concerns at their peril. In the UK, women are reaching out to each other across party lines, concerned about the erosion of their hard-won rights and widespread intimidation. None of the gender critical women I’ve talked to hates trans people; on the contrary. Many of them became interested in this issue in the first place out of concern for trans youth, and they’re hugely sympathetic towards trans adults who simply want to live their lives, but who’re facing a backlash for a brand of activism they don’t endorse. The supreme irony is that the attempt to silence women with the word ‘TERF’ may have pushed more young women towards radical feminism than the movement’s seen in decades.
The last thing I want to say is this. I haven’t written this essay in the hope that anybody will get out a violin for me, not even a teeny-weeny one. I’m extraordinarily fortunate; I’m a survivor, certainly not a victim. I’ve only mentioned my past because, like every other human being on this planet, I have a complex backstory, which shapes my fears, my interests and my opinions. I never forget that inner complexity when I’m creating a fictional character and I certainly never forget it when it comes to trans people.

All I’m asking – all I want – is for similar empathy, similar understanding, to be extended to the many millions of women whose sole crime is wanting their concerns to be heard without receiving threats and abuse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
WallaceinAnderland · 21/03/2024 15:19

Well, biology says men and women in relationships are what procreation is. So biology? Ah, but gay is fine.

You do realise that gay couples cannot procreate with each other don't you?

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:20

I understand your view, but I do not agree with it. I have asked for this GC thread to be moved to the board where GC discussions are intended to be. There are lots of us, lots, who are not interested in this, and get tired of those GC people who see it as their mission to ‘convert’ or educate us. I don’t think any of the things that are moaned about are on enough of a wide scale to threaten anything substantially. I’m short and shit at running. I never got picked for netball or the running team by the tall, athletic girls. Perhaps my sporting chances were damaged by their better genes.

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:20

Yes Wallace. Because BIOLOGY.

borntobequiet · 21/03/2024 15:21

Go fight for things other than who uses the fucking toilet next to you, like stopping trafficking or forced marriage or genital mutilation.

What makes you think we don’t fight against these things? It’s possible to care about more than one thing at a time.

EasternStandard · 21/03/2024 15:22

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:20

I understand your view, but I do not agree with it. I have asked for this GC thread to be moved to the board where GC discussions are intended to be. There are lots of us, lots, who are not interested in this, and get tired of those GC people who see it as their mission to ‘convert’ or educate us. I don’t think any of the things that are moaned about are on enough of a wide scale to threaten anything substantially. I’m short and shit at running. I never got picked for netball or the running team by the tall, athletic girls. Perhaps my sporting chances were damaged by their better genes.

You’re a bit late it’s at 17 pages already, but could you just hide the thread if you’re not interested?

borntobequiet · 21/03/2024 15:23

Oooh rabid now.

WallaceinAnderland · 21/03/2024 15:23

WallaceinAnderland · 21/03/2024 15:16

Replace ‘trans’ with any other minority word and read your stuff back to yourself

No other minority pretends to be something they're not.

And to make it clear to you, I don't want any males in female spaces.

Not Christian males, Jewish males, Muslim males, Scientologist males, atheist males, black males, asian males, disabled males, gay males, old males, transgender males or any other minority males.

Female spaces are for females. It's the only requirement.

Fixerupper77 · 21/03/2024 15:23

WallaceinAnderland · 21/03/2024 15:16

Replace ‘trans’ with any other minority word and read your stuff back to yourself

No other minority pretends to be something they're not.

Incorrect. Lots of other cultures recognise more than two genders.

There was a great article on how trans issues are only seen through a white western lens.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 21/03/2024 15:23

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:20

I understand your view, but I do not agree with it. I have asked for this GC thread to be moved to the board where GC discussions are intended to be. There are lots of us, lots, who are not interested in this, and get tired of those GC people who see it as their mission to ‘convert’ or educate us. I don’t think any of the things that are moaned about are on enough of a wide scale to threaten anything substantially. I’m short and shit at running. I never got picked for netball or the running team by the tall, athletic girls. Perhaps my sporting chances were damaged by their better genes.

Hide the thread then.

So just fuck the women losing out in sports because of biological men then, as it's not on a big enough scale for your liking? And because you were crap in sports at school. Right.

Asking simple questions isn't seeking to educate or convert you. It's a discussion board. That's how it works.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 21/03/2024 15:25

Incorrect. Lots of other cultures recognise more than two genders.

There are only two sexes though. That's the same across all cultures.

WallaceinAnderland · 21/03/2024 15:25

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:20

Yes Wallace. Because BIOLOGY.

So why are you talking about gay people and procreation?

WallaceinAnderland · 21/03/2024 15:27

There are lots of us, lots, who are not interested in this

I don't go on threads that I'm not interested in and tell people to stop talking about it. That would be weird. And a little controlling.

Just either hide the thread or don't open it in the first place if it upsets you.

turbonerd · 21/03/2024 15:28

I also fight against fgm and trafficking.
And single sex toilets for them - because the women who experienced such atrocities will be the ones most in need of single sex provisions.

Lentilweaver · 21/03/2024 15:30

Fixerupper77 · 21/03/2024 15:23

Incorrect. Lots of other cultures recognise more than two genders.

There was a great article on how trans issues are only seen through a white western lens.

Yes, I am from one of those non-white, non- Western cultures with transpeople and a third sex, if you want to call it that. They do not go into women's toilets, or safe spaces, or sports, or schemes. Unlike here.

I really resent the idea that this is only a white women;s issue. I am brown and I do not want to share my spaces with men.

WallaceinAnderland · 21/03/2024 15:35

Lots of other cultures recognise more than two genders.

We do here in the western world too. There are hundreds of genders apparently.

But only two sexes - male and female.

Emotionalsupportviper · 21/03/2024 15:37

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:20

I understand your view, but I do not agree with it. I have asked for this GC thread to be moved to the board where GC discussions are intended to be. There are lots of us, lots, who are not interested in this, and get tired of those GC people who see it as their mission to ‘convert’ or educate us. I don’t think any of the things that are moaned about are on enough of a wide scale to threaten anything substantially. I’m short and shit at running. I never got picked for netball or the running team by the tall, athletic girls. Perhaps my sporting chances were damaged by their better genes.

If those people who aren't interested don't click on this type of thread then they won't have views they don't care about inflicted upon them.

I, for instance, never click on threads that start with 'Which shoes will go with this outfit?" threads because I am not interested in fashion.

It's remarkably easy when you get the hang of it.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 21/03/2024 15:39

You'd think having JK Rowling in the subject would have the #youbekindbutwedonthavetobekind brigade running for the hills, but apparently not. She lives rent free in so many TRA's heads.

Emotionalsupportviper · 21/03/2024 15:40

Fixerupper77 · 21/03/2024 15:23

Incorrect. Lots of other cultures recognise more than two genders.

There was a great article on how trans issues are only seen through a white western lens.

Gender isn't SEX.

There are only two sexes.

There are apparently hundreds of "genders".

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 15:43

"Good god, this is so bloody old now. Go fight for things other than who uses the fucking toilet next to you, like stopping trafficking or forced marriage or genital mutilation."

"But you won’t, will you, cos the truth is you hate trans and the whole ‘female spaces’ thing is your justification, the same as ‘but the NHS is breaking’ is the justification for ‘stop the boats’. There’s a vast amount of injustice and bigotry to all minorities, but I have to say the rabid ‘prove it, quote it, examples now’ badgering and berating from those refusing to allow others their views is the very thing that goes against them recruiting to their cause! I’ve never had NF ask me to prove why I think different ethnicities should all have equality and inclusivity."

"But no, this issue, if you won’t be beaten down you’re called stupid, uneducated, a handmaiden, TRA, and anything else belittling. MN will lose people in droves if this keeps on the way it’s going."

You are rather dismissive of the wide ranging issues that women have been discussing when you try to unsuccessfully narrow it to a massive oversimplification of 'who uses the fucking toilet next to you'. I am sure that you are also aware that feminists are rather handy in concentrating on more than one issue at one time.

Not only that, but considering women have fought very hard to be able to make their own decisions, it is probable that many of us will chose not to follow your directives and focus our attentions where YOU direct.

Your attempt at portraying our interest in protecting women and girl's protections as being similar to 'but the NHS is breaking' is not quite the gotcha you think. Do you think that the NHS is working very well and coping with demand? Really?

"MN will lose people in droves if this keeps on the way it’s going."

I suspect that you are not really well informed. In fact, as more and more people become aware of what is happening (for instance, have you seen that the NHS has banned puberty blockers?) it is becoming quite apparent that the many points raised by the people you are disparaging and mischaracterising are being shown to have merit. And that the majority of the UK population agree with many posters that no female single sex spaces should be accessed by people with a penis (that was the question asked in the poll) nor should male people be included in female sports. Happy to post links to these polls.

Or are you fully aware of that but feel that it shouldn't be discussed because you don't want to discuss it... yet you joined this thread to scold and shame those having the discussion...

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 15:46

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:20

I understand your view, but I do not agree with it. I have asked for this GC thread to be moved to the board where GC discussions are intended to be. There are lots of us, lots, who are not interested in this, and get tired of those GC people who see it as their mission to ‘convert’ or educate us. I don’t think any of the things that are moaned about are on enough of a wide scale to threaten anything substantially. I’m short and shit at running. I never got picked for netball or the running team by the tall, athletic girls. Perhaps my sporting chances were damaged by their better genes.

ahh.. I see that you are someone who has very poor impulse control and want MNHQ to curate the AIBU board to suit your lack of impulse control. Because you cannot scroll past and you must control what appears on the board.

Maybe you should seek help for that.

CorruptedCauldron · 21/03/2024 15:49

Posters coming on here to say they don’t want to read this thread and it should be moved to Naughty Corner.

It reminds me of a Ricky Gervais joke that James Corden inadvertently stole, and I’m going to steal it again. If you walk to the town square and there’s a sign up saying Guitar Lessons, you don’t march up to it and start shouting “but I don’t WANT guitar lessons!” You walk on by, it doesn’t interest you. Not that difficult really, is it? Just don’t click on a thread.

AIBU is choc-a-bloc with threads I’ll never be interested in reading. The title of this thread left no doubt whatsoever that it would be discussing JKR. If she triggers you, just hide the thread, it’s not rocket science.

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 15:51

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:05

But trans using a toilet next to you or not won’t change those things! Don’t be bloody obtuse.

Are you saying that a male person being in a space that should be female single sex is not an issue for a female requiring a female single sex space, for whatever reason?

Can you explain the logic of that please? Are you somehow saying that a male person is miraculously changed into a female person?

And can I just point out that you have just used dehumanising language to describe those people with a transgender identity? 'trans' ? Perhaps you are not so much about progressing the needs of transgender people as you seem to want to position yourself.

SnakesAndArrows · 21/03/2024 15:58

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:20

I understand your view, but I do not agree with it. I have asked for this GC thread to be moved to the board where GC discussions are intended to be. There are lots of us, lots, who are not interested in this, and get tired of those GC people who see it as their mission to ‘convert’ or educate us. I don’t think any of the things that are moaned about are on enough of a wide scale to threaten anything substantially. I’m short and shit at running. I never got picked for netball or the running team by the tall, athletic girls. Perhaps my sporting chances were damaged by their better genes.

I don’t think you do understand the “GC” view at all.

My position is:

I do not believe people have “gendered” souls, much as I don’t believe in souls of any kind.

It’s absolutely fine and none of my business if people want to dress in clothing most often associated with the opposite sex and take on learned mannerisms most often associated with the opposite sex, or to present ambiguously, if that makes them happy.

It’s fine and to be positively encouraged for people to engage in roles traditionally reserved for the opposite sex.

Adults can engage in extreme body modification if they can afford it and can find a willing surgeon.

Women should not be forced into a position where they may be uncomfortable in the presence of a natal male e.g. personal care, communal changing facilities. The fact that many women may not care does not mean that those that do care are bigots.

Medical and surgical experimentation on minors must stop until there is an evidence base to support it.

Is all that offensive and controversial? Or do you suppose that the vast majority of people out there would agree with me?

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 16:00

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 21/03/2024 15:11

And that sums it up - those that aren’t bothered accept trans. Those that are rabid say ‘men in women’s spaces’ thus completely disregarding the whole thing about trans. Biology. Well, biology says men and women in relationships are what procreation is. So biology? Ah, but gay is fine. People such as the Nazis used to excuse their treatment of ‘other’ as they were genetically inferior, stupid, sub-human…so they said it was biology.

Replace ‘trans’ with any other minority word and read your stuff back to yourself, and bloody JK Rolling in it.

Another false comparison. I am sure that this always sounds better in poster's heads.

However, it is false never the less.

People who are same sex attracted (or to both sexes) were subject to illegitimate discrimination. They were not asking for special treatment under any safeguarding principles or indeed, in life. They were asking, and rightfully so, for EQUAL treatment and equal protection.

Male people demanding access to female single sex spaces are demanding ADDITIONAL accommodations be made because of their gender identity. This is not a demand for EQUALITY based on a protected characteristic.

You are trying to use the wrong comparator in your argument and you are doing it using emotionally manipulative tactics to try to force the comparison.

It was always wrong to deny a person legally able to consent to sex the freedom to be in a relationship with another person legally of the age to consent (providing the age of consent is set to an age where it is reasonable to expect a person to be able to consent to sexual activity). Their fight for same sex relationships to be considered legal was a fight for EQUALITY.

Homosexual male, and female, people were wrongfully discriminated against. There were calls to exclude them from positions and spaces based on no statistical evidence at all, just prejudice. This has, rightfully, been prevented with law. Because it was statistically inaccurate.

The fact remains that the comparator should be and only should be 'does one group of male people have a lower risk profile compared to ALL other male people in the UK' ?

The answer for homosexual male people is 'no' and it was likely always no. Besides, again, they were not seeking unequal treatment. There was rarely an issue with female homosexual people.

Also, if you are arguing that any male person over about 8 should be included in any single sex female space, you need to provide evidence that the group of male people you are advocating for have not just a lower risk of committing sex crime than all other male people in the UK. You also need to provide evidence that they commit sex crime at the same or lower rate than all female people in the UK.

It is NOT wrong to exclude male people from a female single sex space because they are male. This is an equal treatment based on the sex of the person. The protected characteristic is SEX not GENDER in this instance.

The above can be said based on 'race' as well. Would you like to suggest another 'minority' that has protection under law that you think doesn't fit with the above explanation.

By the way, the EHRC has agreed that there is a conflict of rights where some male people with gender protections exist, they have clarified that SEX is the priority where legitimate and female single sex spaces and sports are well documented to be those legitimate aims.

Helleofabore · 21/03/2024 16:06

Fixerupper77 · 21/03/2024 15:23

Incorrect. Lots of other cultures recognise more than two genders.

There was a great article on how trans issues are only seen through a white western lens.

Can you please name the ones you remember?

Because I suspect that you are about to leverage cultures that have homophobic and/or misogynistic histories and you have not thought about it. Were you aware of some cultures that were so homophobic that they effectively demanded that a homosexual male must be a special gender?

Can you please name the ones that did not force male homosexual people to become a different gender?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.