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To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?

1000 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/03/2024 09:19

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

10 JUNE 2020
J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues

Warning: The below content is not appropriate for children. Please check with an adult before you read this page. To go back to the children’s page, please click heree_.

This isn’t an easy piece to write, for reasons that will shortly become clear, but I know it’s time to explain myself on an issue surrounded by toxicity. I write this without any desire to add to that toxicity.

For people who don’t know: last December I tweeted my support for Maya Forstater, a tax specialist who’d lost her job for what were deemed ‘transphobic’ tweets. She took her case to an employment tribunal, asking the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected in law. Judge Tayler ruled that it wasn’t.

My interest in trans issues pre-dated Maya’s case by almost two years, during which I followed the debate around the concept of gender identity closely. I’ve met trans people, and read sundry books, blogs and articles by trans people, gender specialists, intersex people, psychologists, safeguarding experts, social workers and doctors, and followed the discourse online and in traditional media. On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself, but on another, it’s intensely personal, as I’m about to explain.

All the time I’ve been researching and learning, accusations and threats from trans activists have been bubbling in my Twitter timeline. This was initially triggered by a ‘like’. When I started taking an interest in gender identity and transgender matters, I began screenshotting comments that interested me, as a way of reminding myself what I might want to research later. On one occasion, I absent-mindedly ‘liked’ instead of screenshotting. That single ‘like’ was deemed evidence of wrongthink, and a persistent low level of harassment began.

Months later, I compounded my accidental ‘like’ crime by following Magdalen Berns on Twitter. Magdalen was an immensely brave young feminist and lesbian who was dying of an aggressive brain tumour. I followed her because I wanted to contact her directly, which I succeeded in doing. However, as Magdalen was a great believer in the importance of biological sex, and didn’t believe lesbians should be called bigots for not dating trans women with penises, dots were joined in the heads of twitter trans activists, and the level of social media abuse increased.

I mention all this only to explain that I knew perfectly well what was going to happen when I supported Maya. I must have been on my fourth or fifth cancellation by then. I expected the threats of violence, to be told I was literally killing trans people with my hate, to be called cunt and bitch and, of course, for my books to be burned, although one particularly abusive man told me he’d composted them.

What I didn’t expect in the aftermath of my cancellation was the avalanche of emails and letters that came showering down upon me, the overwhelming majority of which were positive, grateful and supportive. They came from a cross-section of kind, empathetic and intelligent people, some of them working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria and trans people, who’re all deeply concerned about the way a socio-political concept is influencing politics, medical practice and safeguarding.

They’re worried about the dangers to young people, gay people and about the erosion of women’s and girl’s rights. Above all, they’re worried about a climate of fear that serves nobody – least of all trans youth – well.

I’d stepped back from Twitter for many months both before and after tweeting support for Maya, because I knew it was doing nothing good for my mental health. I only returned because I wanted to share a free children’s book during the pandemic. Immediately, activists who clearly believe themselves to be good, kind and progressive people swarmed back into my timeline, assuming a right to police my speech, accuse me of hatred, call me misogynistic slurs and, above all – as every woman involved in this debate will know – TERF.

If you didn’t already know – and why should you? – ‘TERF’ is an acronym coined by trans activists, which stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. In practice, a huge and diverse cross-section of women are currently being called TERFs and the vast majority have never been radical feminists. Examples of so-called TERFs range from the mother of a gay child who was afraid their child wanted to transition to escape homophobic bullying, to a hitherto totally unfeminist older lady who’s vowed never to visit Marks & Spencer again because they’re allowing any man who says they identify as a woman into the women’s changing rooms. Ironically, radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary – they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.

But accusations of TERFery have been sufficient to intimidate many people, institutions and organisations I once admired, who’re cowering before the tactics of the playground. ‘They’ll call us transphobic!’ ‘They’ll say I hate trans people!’ What next, they’ll say you’ve got fleas? Speaking as a biological woman, a lot of people in positions of power really need to grow a pair (which is doubtless literally possible, according to the kind of people who argue that clownfish prove humans aren’t a dimorphic species).

So why am I doing this? Why speak up? Why not quietly do my research and keep my head down?

Well, I’ve got five reasons for being worried about the new trans activism, and deciding I need to speak up.

Firstly, I have a charitable trust that focuses on alleviating social deprivation in Scotland, with a particular emphasis on women and children. Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.

The second reason is that I’m an ex-teacher and the founder of a children’s charity, which gives me an interest in both education and safeguarding. Like many others, I have deep concerns about the effect the trans rights movement is having on both.

The third is that, as a much-banned author, I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

Most people probably aren’t aware – I certainly wasn’t, until I started researching this issue properly – that ten years ago, the majority of people wanting to transition to the opposite sex were male. That ratio has now reversed. The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.
The same phenomenon has been seen in the US. In 2018, American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:
‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’
Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’
Her paper caused a furore. She was accused of bias and of spreading misinformation about transgender people, subjected to a tsunami of abuse and a concerted campaign to discredit both her and her work. The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it. However, her career took a similar hit to that suffered by Maya Forstater. Lisa Littman had dared challenge one of the central tenets of trans activism, which is that a person’s gender identity is innate, like sexual orientation. Nobody, the activists insisted, could ever be persuaded into being trans.

The argument of many current trans activists is that if you don’t let a gender dysphoric teenager transition, they will kill themselves. In an article explaining why he resigned from the Tavistock (an NHS gender clinic in England) psychiatrist Marcus Evans stated that claims that children will kill themselves if not permitted to transition do not ‘align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.’

The writings of young trans men reveal a group of notably sensitive and clever people. The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.

When I read about the theory of gender identity, I remember how mentally sexless I felt in youth. I remember Colette’s description of herself as a ‘mental hermaphrodite’ and Simone de Beauvoir’s words: ‘It is perfectly natural for the future woman to feel indignant at the limitations posed upon her by her sex. The real question is not why she should reject them: the problem is rather to understand why she accepts them.’
As I didn’t have a realistic possibility of becoming a man back in the 1980s, it had to be books and music that got me through both my mental health issues and the sexualised scrutiny and judgement that sets so many girls to war against their bodies in their teens. Fortunately for me, I found my own sense of otherness, and my ambivalence about being a woman, reflected in the work of female writers and musicians who reassured me that, in spite of everything a sexist world tries to throw at the female-bodied, it’s fine not to feel pink, frilly and compliant inside your own head; it’s OK to feel confused, dark, both sexual and non-sexual, unsure of what or who you are.

I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria. Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people.’ I have: in addition to a few younger people, who were all adorable, I happen to know a self-described transsexual woman who’s older than I am and wonderful. Although she’s open about her past as a gay man, I’ve always found it hard to think of her as anything other than a woman, and I believe (and certainly hope) she’s completely happy to have transitioned. Being older, though, she went through a long and rigorous process of evaluation, psychotherapy and staged transformation. The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.
We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else.

I’ve read all the arguments about femaleness not residing in the sexed body, and the assertions that biological women don’t have common experiences, and I find them, too, deeply misogynistic and regressive. It’s also clear that one of the objectives of denying the importance of sex is to erode what some seem to see as the cruelly segregationist idea of women having their own biological realities or – just as threatening – unifying realities that make them a cohesive political class. The hundreds of emails I’ve received in the last few days prove this erosion concerns many others just as much. It isn’t enough for women to be trans allies. Women must accept and admit that there is no material difference between trans women and themselves.

But, as many women have said before me, ‘woman’ is not a costume. ‘Woman’ is not an idea in a man’s head. ‘Woman’ is not a pink brain, a liking for Jimmy Choos or any of the other sexist ideas now somehow touted as progressive. Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.

Which brings me to the fifth reason I’m deeply concerned about the consequences of the current trans activism.

I’ve been in the public eye now for over twenty years and have never talked publicly about being a domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor. This isn’t because I’m ashamed those things happened to me, but because they’re traumatic to revisit and remember. I also feel protective of my daughter from my first marriage. I didn’t want to claim sole ownership of a story that belongs to her, too. However, a short while ago, I asked her how she’d feel if I were publicly honest about that part of my life, and she encouraged me to go ahead.

I’m mentioning these things now not in an attempt to garner sympathy, but out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.
I managed to escape my first violent marriage with some difficulty, but I’m now married to a truly good and principled man, safe and secure in ways I never in a million years expected to be. However, the scars left by violence and sexual assault don’t disappear, no matter how loved you are, and no matter how much money you’ve made. My perennial jumpiness is a family joke – and even I know it’s funny – but I pray my daughters never have the same reasons I do for hating sudden loud noises, or finding people behind me when I haven’t heard them approaching.

If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read about a trans woman dying at the hands of a violent man, you’d find solidarity and kinship. I have a visceral sense of the terror in which those trans women will have spent their last seconds on earth, because I too have known moments of blind fear when I realised that the only thing keeping me alive was the shaky self-restraint of my attacker.

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.

On Saturday morning, I read that the Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one. To use a very contemporary word, I was ‘triggered’. Ground down by the relentless attacks from trans activists on social media, when I was only there to give children feedback about pictures they’d drawn for my book under lockdown, I spent much of Saturday in a very dark place inside my head, as memories of a serious sexual assault I suffered in my twenties recurred on a loop. That assault happened at a time and in a space where I was vulnerable, and a man capitalised on an opportunity. I couldn’t shut out those memories and I was finding it hard to contain my anger and disappointment about the way I believe my government is playing fast and loose with womens and girls’ safety.

Late on Saturday evening, scrolling through children’s pictures before I went to bed, I forgot the first rule of Twitter – never, ever expect a nuanced conversation – and reacted to what I felt was degrading language about women. I spoke up about the importance of sex and have been paying the price ever since. I was transphobic, I was a cunt, a bitch, a TERF, I deserved cancelling, punching and death. You are Voldemort said one person, clearly feeling this was the only language I’d understand.

It would be so much easier to tweet the approved hashtags – because of course trans rights are human rights and of course trans lives matter – scoop up the woke cookies and bask in a virtue-signalling afterglow. There’s joy, relief and safety in conformity. As Simone de Beauvoir also wrote, “… without a doubt it is more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one’s liberation; the dead, too, are better suited to the earth than the living.”
Huge numbers of women are justifiably terrified by the trans activists; I know this because so many have got in touch with me to tell their stories. They’re afraid of doxxing, of losing their jobs or their livelihoods, and of violence.

But endlessly unpleasant as its constant targeting of me has been, I refuse to bow down to a movement that I believe is doing demonstrable harm in seeking to erode ‘woman’ as a political and biological class and offering cover to predators like few before it. I stand alongside the brave women and men, gay, straight and trans, who’re standing up for freedom of speech and thought, and for the rights and safety of some of the most vulnerable in our society: young gay kids, fragile teenagers, and women who’re reliant on and wish to retain their single sex spaces. Polls show those women are in the vast majority, and exclude only those privileged or lucky enough never to have come up against male violence or sexual assault, and who’ve never troubled to educate themselves on how prevalent it is.

The one thing that gives me hope is that the women who can protest and organise, are doing so, and they have some truly decent men and trans people alongside them. Political parties seeking to appease the loudest voices in this debate are ignoring women’s concerns at their peril. In the UK, women are reaching out to each other across party lines, concerned about the erosion of their hard-won rights and widespread intimidation. None of the gender critical women I’ve talked to hates trans people; on the contrary. Many of them became interested in this issue in the first place out of concern for trans youth, and they’re hugely sympathetic towards trans adults who simply want to live their lives, but who’re facing a backlash for a brand of activism they don’t endorse. The supreme irony is that the attempt to silence women with the word ‘TERF’ may have pushed more young women towards radical feminism than the movement’s seen in decades.
The last thing I want to say is this. I haven’t written this essay in the hope that anybody will get out a violin for me, not even a teeny-weeny one. I’m extraordinarily fortunate; I’m a survivor, certainly not a victim. I’ve only mentioned my past because, like every other human being on this planet, I have a complex backstory, which shapes my fears, my interests and my opinions. I never forget that inner complexity when I’m creating a fictional character and I certainly never forget it when it comes to trans people.

All I’m asking – all I want – is for similar empathy, similar understanding, to be extended to the many millions of women whose sole crime is wanting their concerns to be heard without receiving threats and abuse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2024 09:04

A much larger minority of men engage in sexual harassment of women and girls. Any proposal for mixed sex spaces means women can expect to be harassed much more by men and boys.

Boiledbeetle · 19/03/2024 09:06

mivona · 19/03/2024 00:25

So by your logic all transwomen should be excluded from women's toilets, regardless of their innocent need to pee because they might have a penis. Having a penis does not equate to being violent. And all transmen must run the risk of violence in the men's toilets because you will see them as men regardless of what is in their underwear. Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

It is just so bloody reductive.

Of course having a penis doesn't equate to being violent. But we already keep all males out of the women's toilets, partly because SOME men may hurt women with their penis, but also for more general reasons of assault, privacy, dignity and a myriad of other reasons.

Given that to be a transwoman a person must be male why should one group of men get treated differently? There is no statistical proof that if they just want to pee tranwomen are unsafe in the men's toilets. There is plenty of evidence that women aren't safe when bad men enter women's single sex spaces though, no matter how those men identify.

You may choose to ignore the fact that transwomen are actually men but why should every other woman have to deny what they know to be true?

As for transmen who have changed their body to look more like they are a man they are theoretically welcome in the women's toilets etc. However if those transmen have changed their outwards appearance so much that other women could mistakenly think they are a man then that's a problem those transmen created for themselves I'm afraid and it's up to them to find a solution.

Obviously eventually third gender neutral spaces alongside the binary women and men options will be the only sensible solution, and at one time I'd have happily stood alongside trans people to fight for that. I'm at the point now though that I just want men to stay out of women only spaces, where they go to relieve themselves past that I give not one flying fuck.

OF CATS AND MEN AND LITTER TRAYS

My cat is very much a boy,
despite the loss of balls.
He acts just like a boy cat would
when a female caterwauls.
He still scratches, and he hisses,
always tries to dominate,
despite the awful screams
that from the female emanate.
The female is no match for him,
despite his lack of skill,
if he chooses to, he can do,
and the female outright kill.

So if a cat can act just like a cat,
despite the loss of function,
why would we dare to presume a man
wouldn’t have the self-same gumption?

It’s not just the actual act,
but the fact it could occur.
Their very presence in our space
would lead us to infer
that a man is there for some misdeed,
as that has always been the way.
We go one way to the Ladies,
the men turn, and go the other way.

And as we don’t do genital inspections,
what would you suggest we do?
The easiest way to solve this issue…
KEEP ALL MALES OUT OF OUR LOO.

Boiledbeetle 7th June 2023

ArabellaScott · 19/03/2024 09:08

Plus of course the suggestion that predators are a minority misses the point that one predator is likely to have many, many victims.

Here's just one. Obviously his offending is likely to have spanned a far longer period and involved many more victims.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/suffolk-police-ipswich-ipswich-crown-court-scout-association-b1138856.html

Ex-Scout leader who filmed children in swimming pool changing rooms is jailed

Ian Butcher, of Ipswich, also filmed adults while they were showering, Suffolk Police said.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/suffolk-police-ipswich-ipswich-crown-court-scout-association-b1138856.html

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 09:08

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2024 09:04

A much larger minority of men engage in sexual harassment of women and girls. Any proposal for mixed sex spaces means women can expect to be harassed much more by men and boys.

@mivona surely you can see the stats on male harassment and violence?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/03/2024 09:09

Naunet · 19/03/2024 09:00

Is that based in a society where you’ve stopped rape, child abusers and sexual abuse first, or do you think women and children would be acceptable collateral damage in your utopian future?

And of course if any sexual assault or harassment should occur, the victim can just report it to the police and that will make everything fine and dandy. Hmm

AHighOf9Degrees · 19/03/2024 09:10

Some men who identify as trans will be dysphoric but there will also be cross dressers and men who get turned on by the image of themselves as women and just want to be validated.

Nothing to do with the question I asked about psychotherapy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2024 09:11

If someone really has no empathy, there isn't much point trying to make them understand anything based on other people's feelings. Thankfully most people do understand that the world doesn't revolve around what they personally think.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2024 09:12

AHighOf9Degrees · 19/03/2024 09:10

Some men who identify as trans will be dysphoric but there will also be cross dressers and men who get turned on by the image of themselves as women and just want to be validated.

Nothing to do with the question I asked about psychotherapy.

Highly relevant to the issue though.

ArabellaScott · 19/03/2024 09:12

Here's another. Content warning, graphic descriptions of CSA.

Admitted to over 100 offences, spanning years.

https://news.sky.com/story/pcso-who-filmed-children-in-swimming-pool-changing-rooms-jailed-12833111

I do also look forward to a time when public nudity is safe and nobody has to fear predatory abusive men.

Let me know when we've got to that sunlit utopia. Meanwhile:

97% of women have been sexually harassed.

https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/97-of-women-in-the-uk/105940/

1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted as an adult.
1 in 6 children have been sexually abused.

https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/statistics-sexual-violence/

PCSO who filmed children in swimming pool changing rooms jailed

The 38-year-old admitted to police that he had videoed children in swimming pool changing rooms and at a Center Parcs "around 100 times", amongst other offences.

https://news.sky.com/story/pcso-who-filmed-children-in-swimming-pool-changing-rooms-jailed-12833111

Teajenny7 · 19/03/2024 09:13

Thank you for posting. I had never read it before.
Posting here brings it to the attention of a lot more people. It is not just a feminist issue.

Baldieheid · 19/03/2024 09:23

I'd like Mivona's utopia too. Who wouldn't?

Fantasy though, innit.

nothingcomestonothing · 19/03/2024 09:26

AHighOf9Degrees · 19/03/2024 09:10

Some men who identify as trans will be dysphoric but there will also be cross dressers and men who get turned on by the image of themselves as women and just want to be validated.

Nothing to do with the question I asked about psychotherapy.

There are lots of mental health issues that won't be cured by psychotherapy. That doesn't mean the solution is for everyone else to have to play along with the mentally ill person's delusions. Society can't function like that.

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 09:27

Baldieheid · 19/03/2024 09:23

I'd like Mivona's utopia too. Who wouldn't?

Fantasy though, innit.

The trouble is it’s quite dangerous to promote, especially if it includes influencing children

akkakk · 19/03/2024 09:27

mivona · 19/03/2024 08:39

It is not that I do not understand that we have been socialised to view nudity as wrong, and that being nakeld with strange people causes anxiety. It is that I hope for a society where nudity is not a problem.

The concept might have some validity in a world of innocence and 100% trust - and yes I am sure we would all like a world with no sin / no aggression / no violence / no domination / no sexual perversions / etc.

So, yes in the abstract, a world were nudity is irrelevant is a conceptual ideal - returning back to the Garden of Eden - a time of innocence and purity and no sin.

However...
And it is a huge problematic however...

that is not the world we live in - and sadly it never will be - we live in a world of sin / depravation / sexual perversion / violence etc. - so that ideal will never be seen...

and it only needs one person in a million to have that nature and it would not be acceptable - we could be 99.999999% perfect world and that is still an issue that we are not 100% perfect.

So the ideal, while laudable is impracticable and won't happen... so we need to address the now, the current situation where some men do rape women / do have sexual perversions / do have ulterior motives which they lie about etc. etc.

and the simple answer is that there is no issue with the historical approach we have:

men -> men's facilities (and yes, transwomen are biologically male)
women -> women's facilities

so this debate is not because we have a historical issue that needs fixing, it is because some people are trying to generate a new problem to suit them...

so, why do we have this debate - why do some men want to be in women's spaces - of course, we will never fully know and we won't be told the truth because that would be inconvenient, so we need to look at likely reasons:

  • because some men want to control women
  • because some men want to harm (assault sexually or otherwise)
  • because some men identify as women and wish to use women to validate their beliefs
  • because some men have sexual perversions
  • because some men like the power game despite the casualties
None of those are valid reasons for change - indeed they are all reasons to stop any change... So are there any genuine reasons why any men should be in a women's space?
  • 'because transwomen are vulnerable' - no evidence of that, and even if they were the answer would firstly be to sort out those issues and secondly be a third space not the women's space
  • 'because transwomen wish to innocently pee' - great, we all need to do that, they can do that in the men's space as they always have - no issues with that.
  • 'because transwomen are women' - except that they are not - they are biologically male, and whatever their thoughts, beliefs, operations, etc. they are still male
So no valid reasons there... but does it really matter? Yes:
  • having separate spaces based on biological sex is a part of building respect for each other an a healthy society
  • women have a right to their own space - as do men, I no more want a transman using the gents than women want a transwoman using the ladies.
  • there are huge safeguarding issues in letting biological men have the right to change alongside children and women - sure, in a family environment it is not an issue, lots of fathers will change alongside young daughters, but it would not be appropriate with other people's children, nor is it normal with older adolescent or grown-up women. And safeguarding also includes vulnerable women, so it is an even bigger issue than the already large safeguarding issue around children.
  • in any part of society if one small group have an established need, you don't solve it by removing the solutions addressing the needs of other groups small or large - the concept that a small group of men who identify as women have a need (cf above, they don't) and that therefore all women should have their needs / solution removed is fundamentally wrong.
  • Some people will say 'oh there won't be any issues' but we know there will be - how? - because there is a huge amount of evidence already...

So, yes, I can see the idealistic notion of a society where nudity doesn't matter - I would agree that is a lovely concept - but it isn't based in reality and never will be - so in the meantime, we have to accept that we live in a broken and damaged world where motivations might be suspect, and act accordingly, so:
men -> men's spaces
women -> women's spaces

simple

Whatafustercluck · 19/03/2024 09:29

JK Rowling's essay is thoughtful, balanced and insightful, as well as rationally backed up by evidence. I find it hard to stomach that someone so clearly articulate in her thoughts and views can be subjected to such abuse merely for voicing them. I completely agree with her.

I well remember my awkward teenage years as a straight 'tomboy' who loved football and Formula One, looking at the screen and wondering where I fitted into the world, because I saw no similar female representation on TV. I hated my changing body, everything was so visible. Nobody talked about how amazing the female body is, how strong and durable. Everything was to be 'endured'. Fast forward to now, I embrace womanhood, my body has birthed and kept alive two children. And despise being referred to as a menstruator. It's the most dehumanising terminology, regardless of whether or not you've suffered the kind of misogynistic slurs JK Rowling has. It makes me think of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.

But. We cannot continue to talk about everything that is wrong with trans activism, self identification and our right to single sex spaces without beginning to be part of the solution. Rowling has a platform. She is supported by thousands and thousands of people. People like her need to start using that platform to promote ideas for workable solutions - solutions that protect single sex spaces, while ensuring appropriate safeguarding for trans people. Lobby politicians for sensible debate involving multiple people (including sensible voices from across the spectrum) that help create and develop workable education and healthcare policies. I see and hear lots of opinions on this subject, but we have no collective 'movement' that can help effect change at a strategic national level. Who, at a national and collective level, is speaking to Keir Starmer, our next PM, about all of this? We can't simply say "I won't vote for him" without attempting to lobby him.

AHighOf9Degrees · 19/03/2024 09:30

how does gender dysphoria get cured by going through puberty?
Surely it would do the exact opposite and not cure it you were gender dysphoric, as you'd think you were going through the "wrong" puberty?

Most people desist as their developing identity is in flux until late adolescence and eventually settles as they come to terms with their developing body and sexuality.

For some people developing secondary sex characteristics intensifies dysphoria.

ArabellaScott · 19/03/2024 09:33

What I find odd is the idea that if one's body causes dysphoria, the automatic solution is to have plastic surgery.

Surgery is risky and there's little evidence that surgical alterations will cure the underlying mental issue.

Baldieheid · 19/03/2024 09:35

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 09:27

The trouble is it’s quite dangerous to promote, especially if it includes influencing children

Yes. Which is why the word fantasy was used. Its gobbledegook. Its balderdash. Its as likely as Tolkein's middle earth suddenly springing up out of the Sahara.

Its exactly why this movement appeals to kids, teenagers and gaming geeks.

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 09:38

Baldieheid · 19/03/2024 09:35

Yes. Which is why the word fantasy was used. Its gobbledegook. Its balderdash. Its as likely as Tolkein's middle earth suddenly springing up out of the Sahara.

Its exactly why this movement appeals to kids, teenagers and gaming geeks.

Yes absolutely

But I’d go a bit further than fantasy and say it’s harmful.

If the poster is relaying this thinking to children it’s problematic

Whatafustercluck · 19/03/2024 09:42

ArabellaScott · 19/03/2024 09:33

What I find odd is the idea that if one's body causes dysphoria, the automatic solution is to have plastic surgery.

Surgery is risky and there's little evidence that surgical alterations will cure the underlying mental issue.

Completely agree with this. Look at the number of people who have surgery for cosmetic reasons who are never truly satisfied with the end result, because nobody has addressed the psychology behind it. Instead they opt for more and more surgery. My friend underwent major surgery in Turkey for obesity (gastric bypass and skin tuck). She is back to overeating because she hasn't addressed the root cause of her over-eating. Except she's now £20k down.

NonPlayerCharacter · 19/03/2024 09:43

Perhaps Mivona would be happy to leave their house and car with the doors wide open, with a huge neon sign stating when nobody is home. After all, I would like my children to grow up in a world where burglars don't exist.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/03/2024 09:50

Whatafustercluck · 19/03/2024 09:42

Completely agree with this. Look at the number of people who have surgery for cosmetic reasons who are never truly satisfied with the end result, because nobody has addressed the psychology behind it. Instead they opt for more and more surgery. My friend underwent major surgery in Turkey for obesity (gastric bypass and skin tuck). She is back to overeating because she hasn't addressed the root cause of her over-eating. Except she's now £20k down.

On this point, the Labour Party is planning to ban 'all forms of conversion therapy'.

This would include talking therapy to explore the reasons for dysphoria if those are not talking therapies are not gender affirming. In my opinion this is horrific.

Especially now that there is so much evidence from detransitioners of the harms of gender affirming surgery to them.

CantDealwithChristmas · 19/03/2024 09:53

mivona · 18/03/2024 15:49

Why does biological sex even matter, unless you are wanting to reproduce or requiring reproductive healthcare?

My feminism was/is to free everyone from being constrained by their perceived sex and presumptions being made about what they can and cannot do as a consequence.

This is one of the sillier ideas I've come across.

Why does biological sex matter, other than reproduction? Gee, let's see:

  • Gynaecological health issues
  • Men & women experience heart attack and stroke differently
  • Men and women have different sized and positioned skeletons - important to know if you ever break a bone
  • Men and women have different and differently sized and positioned organs - kinda useful to know for oncologists
  • Men commit more violent crime than women - useful to know for those tasked with government and peace keeping
  • Men and women have different hygiene requirements
  • Women still get paid less than men and need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • Women more likely to be targets of male sexual and domestic violence and need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • Women are discriminated on grounds of sex and we need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • In many parts of the world women lack the same equivalence and rights in law as men and we need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • Conscription laws across the world work differently
  • In many parts of the world girls lack the same access to educations as men and we need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • In many parts of the world women lack the same access to healthcare as men and we need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • In many parts of the world women are disadvantaged against men in terms of state benefit entitlements and we need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • In many parts of the world women are disadvantaged against men in terms of workplace and career and we need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • Statistically speaking men and women have differences in mental illnesses and how they are experienced and we need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • Women across the world are more subject to casual harrassment in public
  • In many parts of the world women cannot go out in public without a male guardian whereas men can and we need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • In many parts of the world women are required to cover themselves head to foot in unwiedly garments which interferes with their ability to enjoy a full life and we need to define ourselves to fight against that
  • In many parts of the world women can be physically punished for being sexually assaulted or going uncovered and we need to define ourselves to fight against that

There's loads more - I'll do a separate post

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2024 09:58

I'd like Mivona's utopia too. Who wouldn't?

I'd like a flying car, and monorails.

AHighOf9Degrees · 19/03/2024 09:59

She is back to overeating because she hasn't addressed the root cause of her over-eating. Except she's now £20k down.

There’s more evidence for addressing the causes of overweight than for curing gender dysphoria through therapy. Many of the common causes of over eating (depression, anxiety, low self esteem, abuse) are typically amenable to psychotherapy/ psychopharmacologial intervention.

A cross sex gender identity or insecure gender identity development is a much more complex/ fundamentally difficult issue. It may also have genetic/ biological elements. Less amenable to change.

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