Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that J K Rowling was right in her predictions about what would happen to women and girls?

1000 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 18/03/2024 09:19

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

10 JUNE 2020
J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues

Warning: The below content is not appropriate for children. Please check with an adult before you read this page. To go back to the children’s page, please click heree_.

This isn’t an easy piece to write, for reasons that will shortly become clear, but I know it’s time to explain myself on an issue surrounded by toxicity. I write this without any desire to add to that toxicity.

For people who don’t know: last December I tweeted my support for Maya Forstater, a tax specialist who’d lost her job for what were deemed ‘transphobic’ tweets. She took her case to an employment tribunal, asking the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected in law. Judge Tayler ruled that it wasn’t.

My interest in trans issues pre-dated Maya’s case by almost two years, during which I followed the debate around the concept of gender identity closely. I’ve met trans people, and read sundry books, blogs and articles by trans people, gender specialists, intersex people, psychologists, safeguarding experts, social workers and doctors, and followed the discourse online and in traditional media. On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself, but on another, it’s intensely personal, as I’m about to explain.

All the time I’ve been researching and learning, accusations and threats from trans activists have been bubbling in my Twitter timeline. This was initially triggered by a ‘like’. When I started taking an interest in gender identity and transgender matters, I began screenshotting comments that interested me, as a way of reminding myself what I might want to research later. On one occasion, I absent-mindedly ‘liked’ instead of screenshotting. That single ‘like’ was deemed evidence of wrongthink, and a persistent low level of harassment began.

Months later, I compounded my accidental ‘like’ crime by following Magdalen Berns on Twitter. Magdalen was an immensely brave young feminist and lesbian who was dying of an aggressive brain tumour. I followed her because I wanted to contact her directly, which I succeeded in doing. However, as Magdalen was a great believer in the importance of biological sex, and didn’t believe lesbians should be called bigots for not dating trans women with penises, dots were joined in the heads of twitter trans activists, and the level of social media abuse increased.

I mention all this only to explain that I knew perfectly well what was going to happen when I supported Maya. I must have been on my fourth or fifth cancellation by then. I expected the threats of violence, to be told I was literally killing trans people with my hate, to be called cunt and bitch and, of course, for my books to be burned, although one particularly abusive man told me he’d composted them.

What I didn’t expect in the aftermath of my cancellation was the avalanche of emails and letters that came showering down upon me, the overwhelming majority of which were positive, grateful and supportive. They came from a cross-section of kind, empathetic and intelligent people, some of them working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria and trans people, who’re all deeply concerned about the way a socio-political concept is influencing politics, medical practice and safeguarding.

They’re worried about the dangers to young people, gay people and about the erosion of women’s and girl’s rights. Above all, they’re worried about a climate of fear that serves nobody – least of all trans youth – well.

I’d stepped back from Twitter for many months both before and after tweeting support for Maya, because I knew it was doing nothing good for my mental health. I only returned because I wanted to share a free children’s book during the pandemic. Immediately, activists who clearly believe themselves to be good, kind and progressive people swarmed back into my timeline, assuming a right to police my speech, accuse me of hatred, call me misogynistic slurs and, above all – as every woman involved in this debate will know – TERF.

If you didn’t already know – and why should you? – ‘TERF’ is an acronym coined by trans activists, which stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. In practice, a huge and diverse cross-section of women are currently being called TERFs and the vast majority have never been radical feminists. Examples of so-called TERFs range from the mother of a gay child who was afraid their child wanted to transition to escape homophobic bullying, to a hitherto totally unfeminist older lady who’s vowed never to visit Marks & Spencer again because they’re allowing any man who says they identify as a woman into the women’s changing rooms. Ironically, radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary – they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.

But accusations of TERFery have been sufficient to intimidate many people, institutions and organisations I once admired, who’re cowering before the tactics of the playground. ‘They’ll call us transphobic!’ ‘They’ll say I hate trans people!’ What next, they’ll say you’ve got fleas? Speaking as a biological woman, a lot of people in positions of power really need to grow a pair (which is doubtless literally possible, according to the kind of people who argue that clownfish prove humans aren’t a dimorphic species).

So why am I doing this? Why speak up? Why not quietly do my research and keep my head down?

Well, I’ve got five reasons for being worried about the new trans activism, and deciding I need to speak up.

Firstly, I have a charitable trust that focuses on alleviating social deprivation in Scotland, with a particular emphasis on women and children. Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.

The second reason is that I’m an ex-teacher and the founder of a children’s charity, which gives me an interest in both education and safeguarding. Like many others, I have deep concerns about the effect the trans rights movement is having on both.

The third is that, as a much-banned author, I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.

The fourth is where things start to get truly personal. I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility. Some say they decided to transition after realising they were same-sex attracted, and that transitioning was partly driven by homophobia, either in society or in their families.

Most people probably aren’t aware – I certainly wasn’t, until I started researching this issue properly – that ten years ago, the majority of people wanting to transition to the opposite sex were male. That ratio has now reversed. The UK has experienced a 4400% increase in girls being referred for transitioning treatment. Autistic girls are hugely overrepresented in their numbers.
The same phenomenon has been seen in the US. In 2018, American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:
‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’
Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’
Her paper caused a furore. She was accused of bias and of spreading misinformation about transgender people, subjected to a tsunami of abuse and a concerted campaign to discredit both her and her work. The journal took the paper offline and re-reviewed it before republishing it. However, her career took a similar hit to that suffered by Maya Forstater. Lisa Littman had dared challenge one of the central tenets of trans activism, which is that a person’s gender identity is innate, like sexual orientation. Nobody, the activists insisted, could ever be persuaded into being trans.

The argument of many current trans activists is that if you don’t let a gender dysphoric teenager transition, they will kill themselves. In an article explaining why he resigned from the Tavistock (an NHS gender clinic in England) psychiatrist Marcus Evans stated that claims that children will kill themselves if not permitted to transition do not ‘align substantially with any robust data or studies in this area. Nor do they align with the cases I have encountered over decades as a psychotherapist.’

The writings of young trans men reveal a group of notably sensitive and clever people. The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.

When I read about the theory of gender identity, I remember how mentally sexless I felt in youth. I remember Colette’s description of herself as a ‘mental hermaphrodite’ and Simone de Beauvoir’s words: ‘It is perfectly natural for the future woman to feel indignant at the limitations posed upon her by her sex. The real question is not why she should reject them: the problem is rather to understand why she accepts them.’
As I didn’t have a realistic possibility of becoming a man back in the 1980s, it had to be books and music that got me through both my mental health issues and the sexualised scrutiny and judgement that sets so many girls to war against their bodies in their teens. Fortunately for me, I found my own sense of otherness, and my ambivalence about being a woman, reflected in the work of female writers and musicians who reassured me that, in spite of everything a sexist world tries to throw at the female-bodied, it’s fine not to feel pink, frilly and compliant inside your own head; it’s OK to feel confused, dark, both sexual and non-sexual, unsure of what or who you are.

I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria. Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people.’ I have: in addition to a few younger people, who were all adorable, I happen to know a self-described transsexual woman who’s older than I am and wonderful. Although she’s open about her past as a gay man, I’ve always found it hard to think of her as anything other than a woman, and I believe (and certainly hope) she’s completely happy to have transitioned. Being older, though, she went through a long and rigorous process of evaluation, psychotherapy and staged transformation. The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law. Many people aren’t aware of this.
We’re living through the most misogynistic period I’ve experienced. Back in the 80s, I imagined that my future daughters, should I have any, would have it far better than I ever did, but between the backlash against feminism and a porn-saturated online culture, I believe things have got significantly worse for girls. Never have I seen women denigrated and dehumanised to the extent they are now. From the leader of the free world’s long history of sexual assault accusations and his proud boast of ‘grabbing them by the pussy’, to the incel (‘involuntarily celibate’) movement that rages against women who won’t give them sex, to the trans activists who declare that TERFs need punching and re-educating, men across the political spectrum seem to agree: women are asking for trouble. Everywhere, women are being told to shut up and sit down, or else.

I’ve read all the arguments about femaleness not residing in the sexed body, and the assertions that biological women don’t have common experiences, and I find them, too, deeply misogynistic and regressive. It’s also clear that one of the objectives of denying the importance of sex is to erode what some seem to see as the cruelly segregationist idea of women having their own biological realities or – just as threatening – unifying realities that make them a cohesive political class. The hundreds of emails I’ve received in the last few days prove this erosion concerns many others just as much. It isn’t enough for women to be trans allies. Women must accept and admit that there is no material difference between trans women and themselves.

But, as many women have said before me, ‘woman’ is not a costume. ‘Woman’ is not an idea in a man’s head. ‘Woman’ is not a pink brain, a liking for Jimmy Choos or any of the other sexist ideas now somehow touted as progressive. Moreover, the ‘inclusive’ language that calls female people ‘menstruators’ and ‘people with vulvas’ strikes many women as dehumanising and demeaning. I understand why trans activists consider this language to be appropriate and kind, but for those of us who’ve had degrading slurs spat at us by violent men, it’s not neutral, it’s hostile and alienating.

Which brings me to the fifth reason I’m deeply concerned about the consequences of the current trans activism.

I’ve been in the public eye now for over twenty years and have never talked publicly about being a domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor. This isn’t because I’m ashamed those things happened to me, but because they’re traumatic to revisit and remember. I also feel protective of my daughter from my first marriage. I didn’t want to claim sole ownership of a story that belongs to her, too. However, a short while ago, I asked her how she’d feel if I were publicly honest about that part of my life, and she encouraged me to go ahead.

I’m mentioning these things now not in an attempt to garner sympathy, but out of solidarity with the huge numbers of women who have histories like mine, who’ve been slurred as bigots for having concerns around single-sex spaces.
I managed to escape my first violent marriage with some difficulty, but I’m now married to a truly good and principled man, safe and secure in ways I never in a million years expected to be. However, the scars left by violence and sexual assault don’t disappear, no matter how loved you are, and no matter how much money you’ve made. My perennial jumpiness is a family joke – and even I know it’s funny – but I pray my daughters never have the same reasons I do for hating sudden loud noises, or finding people behind me when I haven’t heard them approaching.

If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read about a trans woman dying at the hands of a violent man, you’d find solidarity and kinship. I have a visceral sense of the terror in which those trans women will have spent their last seconds on earth, because I too have known moments of blind fear when I realised that the only thing keeping me alive was the shaky self-restraint of my attacker.

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.

So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.

On Saturday morning, I read that the Scottish government is proceeding with its controversial gender recognition plans, which will in effect mean that all a man needs to ‘become a woman’ is to say he’s one. To use a very contemporary word, I was ‘triggered’. Ground down by the relentless attacks from trans activists on social media, when I was only there to give children feedback about pictures they’d drawn for my book under lockdown, I spent much of Saturday in a very dark place inside my head, as memories of a serious sexual assault I suffered in my twenties recurred on a loop. That assault happened at a time and in a space where I was vulnerable, and a man capitalised on an opportunity. I couldn’t shut out those memories and I was finding it hard to contain my anger and disappointment about the way I believe my government is playing fast and loose with womens and girls’ safety.

Late on Saturday evening, scrolling through children’s pictures before I went to bed, I forgot the first rule of Twitter – never, ever expect a nuanced conversation – and reacted to what I felt was degrading language about women. I spoke up about the importance of sex and have been paying the price ever since. I was transphobic, I was a cunt, a bitch, a TERF, I deserved cancelling, punching and death. You are Voldemort said one person, clearly feeling this was the only language I’d understand.

It would be so much easier to tweet the approved hashtags – because of course trans rights are human rights and of course trans lives matter – scoop up the woke cookies and bask in a virtue-signalling afterglow. There’s joy, relief and safety in conformity. As Simone de Beauvoir also wrote, “… without a doubt it is more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one’s liberation; the dead, too, are better suited to the earth than the living.”
Huge numbers of women are justifiably terrified by the trans activists; I know this because so many have got in touch with me to tell their stories. They’re afraid of doxxing, of losing their jobs or their livelihoods, and of violence.

But endlessly unpleasant as its constant targeting of me has been, I refuse to bow down to a movement that I believe is doing demonstrable harm in seeking to erode ‘woman’ as a political and biological class and offering cover to predators like few before it. I stand alongside the brave women and men, gay, straight and trans, who’re standing up for freedom of speech and thought, and for the rights and safety of some of the most vulnerable in our society: young gay kids, fragile teenagers, and women who’re reliant on and wish to retain their single sex spaces. Polls show those women are in the vast majority, and exclude only those privileged or lucky enough never to have come up against male violence or sexual assault, and who’ve never troubled to educate themselves on how prevalent it is.

The one thing that gives me hope is that the women who can protest and organise, are doing so, and they have some truly decent men and trans people alongside them. Political parties seeking to appease the loudest voices in this debate are ignoring women’s concerns at their peril. In the UK, women are reaching out to each other across party lines, concerned about the erosion of their hard-won rights and widespread intimidation. None of the gender critical women I’ve talked to hates trans people; on the contrary. Many of them became interested in this issue in the first place out of concern for trans youth, and they’re hugely sympathetic towards trans adults who simply want to live their lives, but who’re facing a backlash for a brand of activism they don’t endorse. The supreme irony is that the attempt to silence women with the word ‘TERF’ may have pushed more young women towards radical feminism than the movement’s seen in decades.
The last thing I want to say is this. I haven’t written this essay in the hope that anybody will get out a violin for me, not even a teeny-weeny one. I’m extraordinarily fortunate; I’m a survivor, certainly not a victim. I’ve only mentioned my past because, like every other human being on this planet, I have a complex backstory, which shapes my fears, my interests and my opinions. I never forget that inner complexity when I’m creating a fictional character and I certainly never forget it when it comes to trans people.

All I’m asking – all I want – is for similar empathy, similar understanding, to be extended to the many millions of women whose sole crime is wanting their concerns to be heard without receiving threats and abuse.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
56
WallaceinAnderland · 19/03/2024 00:07

You don't get "made" trans by someone mentioning it to you just like you don't get "made" gay.

Many girls, especially girls with autism, and especially girls who are lesbians, and especially those who are what was known as 'tomboys', don't feel like they fit in and are uncomfortable in their changing bodies.

Unfortunately, schools have been teaching children that if you don't feel comfortable, you may be in the wrong body. Which they now acknowledge is all kinds of wrong and that puberty is a normal, healthy and essential part of life for humans and other mammals.

Once these girls are mature, they no longer feel that 'dysphoria'.

mivona · 19/03/2024 00:25

DetOliviaBenson · 18/03/2024 20:27

So by your logic because you're fine being naked in front of men ALL women and girls regardless of their life experiences should be fine being naked in front of men. Who gives a shit if they're traumatised aye? Mivona is fine with it and everyone else is wrong.

So by your logic all transwomen should be excluded from women's toilets, regardless of their innocent need to pee because they might have a penis. Having a penis does not equate to being violent. And all transmen must run the risk of violence in the men's toilets because you will see them as men regardless of what is in their underwear. Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

It is just so bloody reductive.

mivona · 19/03/2024 00:33

Baldieheid · 18/03/2024 21:55

Exactly.

My DH is a total sweetheart but he'd want to die if someone forced him to change alongside his friend's 18 year old daughter.

Men and boys are entitled to privacy and dignity too. Safety is also deserved but the enemy is within.

Women have, for a short 100 years or so, enjoyed privacy, dignity and safety away from male aggression.

I cant believe it's being taken away in my lifetime, and there are women actively taking part in the demolition. Stupidity is not an excuse for partaking in evil. Nor is cowardice.

It is not as if we must all undress in one giant room. I've been to places that don't have male and female dressing rooms, but cubicles that can be access by either. Shower cubicles that have doors on them, not just ranks of shower heads.

It is more civilised for everyone. There are plenty of people around to offer security in numbers.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2024 00:38

You don't get "made" trans by someone mentioning it to you just like you don't get "made" gay.

You might be convinced to believe that you are "trans" though, when you are simply finding puberty difficult.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2024 00:39

So by your logic all transwomen should be excluded from women's toilets

Yes, fully agree.

WallaceinAnderland · 19/03/2024 00:41

All males should be excluded from female spaces because they are not female.

Transwomen are of the male sex. This is what makes them transwomen.

Males should use male facilities.

Transmen are of the female sex. They can use female facilities.

OR

We can all campaign for third mixed sex spaces for all those that are happy with them. This would be my preference and I think if all the women's groups and all the transactivist groups campaign together for such facilities, we would succeed.

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 19/03/2024 00:42

Transmen are of the female sex. They can use female facilities.
Lol, that'll always work if they present as male.
Even if you think you're the best trans investigator ever you won't get it right every time.

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/03/2024 00:46

WaitingForMojo · 18/03/2024 11:23

Well, lots of us don’t want to read it and think it’s crap. And want to be able to read other boards without encountering it. HTH.

No one is forcing you to click on it.

OP thank you for posting in here, I wouldn't have seen it otherwise and it is so very powerful. I will show it to my dc tomorrow.

WallaceinAnderland · 19/03/2024 00:48

Lol, that'll always work if they present as male.

What, short hair, jeans, hoodie and trainers? Not at all unusual to see in the ladies.

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/03/2024 01:11

mivona · 18/03/2024 15:49

Why does biological sex even matter, unless you are wanting to reproduce or requiring reproductive healthcare?

My feminism was/is to free everyone from being constrained by their perceived sex and presumptions being made about what they can and cannot do as a consequence.

I'm sure the millions of female rape, sexual assault and domestic violence victims worldwide will tell you sex absolutely does matter.

They are clearly an afterthought with you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2024 01:16

If biological sex doesn't matter, why would "gender"?

The answer is that because of course it matters to the vast majority of people, and "gender" only exists because people distinguish between the two sexes.

Brefugee · 19/03/2024 06:08

NonPlayerCharacter · 18/03/2024 21:23

We'll get deleted for saying it, perhaps I'll be deleted for implying it, but it does seem very likely that...

I mean, I've never heard a woman in real life claim not to understand why women wouldn't want to be naked with strange men. Even ones who are OK with mixed saunas etc. They still understand why many other women wouldn't be. They don't need it explained to them. I've never met a woman who needed to ask why not all women - most, of course - would not be willing to do that.

Have you?

(not in UK) pretty much all saunas here (they are A Thing so there are lots) offer mixed (naked - they are all "textile free") offer micmxes sessions. Often mostly mixed. And yet without exception offer single sex sessions too. For a reason

JellySaurus · 19/03/2024 06:59

Maturation. Coming to terms with the new way your body looks and behaves. Enjoying the new societal options maturity brings. Discovering sexuality.

Puberty isn't an instant switch. It isn't just the development of secondary sexual characteristics. It is a process takes over ten years, and involves every part of your body - including your brain. Are you exactly the same at 35 as you were at 20? Same body shape, same beliefs, same outlook on life, same social circle, same competencies? The difference between 25 and 10 is even greater.

SnakesAndArrows · 19/03/2024 07:04

mivona · 19/03/2024 00:25

So by your logic all transwomen should be excluded from women's toilets, regardless of their innocent need to pee because they might have a penis. Having a penis does not equate to being violent. And all transmen must run the risk of violence in the men's toilets because you will see them as men regardless of what is in their underwear. Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

It is just so bloody reductive.

Most transwomen have penises. Transwomen retain the same male pattern of sex offences and other violence. Men should stay out of single-sex female spaces, and so should trans women.

I’ve no idea where you’re going with the transmen argument. Are you saying they shouldn’t go into men’s changing rooms (because of male violence) or the women’s (because they might get mistaken for men?). Where should they go?

SoreAndTired1 · 19/03/2024 07:31

mivona · 19/03/2024 00:25

So by your logic all transwomen should be excluded from women's toilets, regardless of their innocent need to pee because they might have a penis. Having a penis does not equate to being violent. And all transmen must run the risk of violence in the men's toilets because you will see them as men regardless of what is in their underwear. Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

It is just so bloody reductive.

So by your logic all transwomen should be excluded from women's toilets, regardless of their innocent need to pee because they might have a penis.

They almost all retain their penis. Hardly any of them have the op. Almost none do.

They are a male with penis and testicles in a dress. This is what you are not understanding. Why do you think there is a difference between a male with penis in a suit and tie, and a male with penis in a dress?

They are still male.

Having a penis does not equate to being violent.

98% of all assaults are by males with a penis. The stats are quite clear.

And all transmen must run the risk of violence in the men's toilets because you will see them as men regardless of what is in their underwear. Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

Wrong. Transmen are female so we are fine with them in the female toilets.

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 07:34

mivona · 19/03/2024 00:25

So by your logic all transwomen should be excluded from women's toilets, regardless of their innocent need to pee because they might have a penis. Having a penis does not equate to being violent. And all transmen must run the risk of violence in the men's toilets because you will see them as men regardless of what is in their underwear. Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

It is just so bloody reductive.

Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

Incredible. Why does the safety and safeguarding of women and children mean zero to you?

NonPlayerCharacter · 19/03/2024 07:35

So by your logic all transwomen should be excluded from women's toilets, regardless of their innocent need to pee because they might have a penis.

It's the same logic by which we keep all innocent male people out of women's toilets. What's the difference here? And why is an additional, unisex third space not a satisfactory solution for you?

NotTerfNorCis · 19/03/2024 07:38

On one occasion, I absent-mindedly ‘liked’ instead of screenshotting. That single ‘like’ was deemed evidence of wrongthink, and a persistent low level of harassment began.

She doomed herself at that moment to a life time of TRA attacks. A tiny slip, and they came out to destroy her. There was no going back. If she had never got involved in the debate again, they'd still be calling her a terf and trying to cut her off from her work.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/03/2024 07:50

And all transmen must run the risk of violence in the men's toilets because you will see them as men regardless of what is in their underwear. Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

This seems a very muddled point. Transmen are female. They identify as men. If they make so few changes to their appearance that they still look female, of course they should be using the female loos and changing rooms. As with any other female, they would be unwelcome in the men's. If their appearance has changed so much that they look male (if you ignore their hips, which are usually the big giveaway), surely they are going to want the affirmation of using the male facilities? What's the point otherwise?

The drug and surgical treatments that lead to these drastic changes in appearance are experimental and have horrible side effects. There's good reason to believe that a young woman who starts taking drugs to suppress her natural hormones and who also takes testosterone, thereby putting herself into early menopause, is probably shortening her life, because of damage to her cardiovascular system and increased risk of cancer, diabetes and osteoporosis. The WPATH files released recently have made it clear that medical doctors and other HCPs involved in gender clinics have known for a long time that they were not getting informed consent from their patients before these life-changing treatments, but they went ahead anyway. It's a huge scandal and we will look back on this in years to come as we currently do at the fashion for lobotomies a few decades ago.

nothingcomestonothing · 19/03/2024 07:52

Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

Yeah that really is the TRA argument, isn't it? Who cares if women are traumatised or attacked or now forbidden by their religion's requirements from accessing public spaces, as long as transwomen get 'validation'.

There are no recorded instances of transwomen being attacked in men's facilities. None. NONE. And there are many of women being attacked in women's facilities by men who do and who don't identify as trans. 'Katie' Dolatowski, 6'5 TW who sexually assaulted little girls in the women's toilets being an obvious example.

Why don't you care about women? Why do you think women are support humans who exist to validate men's ideas about themselves?

EasternStandard · 19/03/2024 07:56

nothingcomestonothing · 19/03/2024 07:52

Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

Yeah that really is the TRA argument, isn't it? Who cares if women are traumatised or attacked or now forbidden by their religion's requirements from accessing public spaces, as long as transwomen get 'validation'.

There are no recorded instances of transwomen being attacked in men's facilities. None. NONE. And there are many of women being attacked in women's facilities by men who do and who don't identify as trans. 'Katie' Dolatowski, 6'5 TW who sexually assaulted little girls in the women's toilets being an obvious example.

Why don't you care about women? Why do you think women are support humans who exist to validate men's ideas about themselves?

That line shows the reality of genderism

We have lost the ability to talk about our safety

It’s a dangerous ideology for women and children

GnomeDePlume · 19/03/2024 08:04

I was pleased to read JKR's essay again.

Unfortunately my 20s DCs are hard caught in the 'JKR is evil' mindset. They are intelligent people but have been totally indoctrinated into this belief. It makes me sad because it means a whole subject area is off limits for family discussion.

Something I do notice is that some men stir the trans pot not because they have skin in the game but for two reasons:

  1. A lot of men enjoy watching a fight when no one is expecting them to join in
  2. They are happy to see social disapproval aimed at feminist women rather than themselves
Chiaseedling · 19/03/2024 08:07

I agree with her & love her books.
My young adult DD is non-binary and gay - and highly likely to be autistic so majorly fits a typical autism/gender confusion profile.
Haven’t got an issue with the gay part at all, and thankfully hasn’t name changed or taken any hormones - I am hoping that the non-binary part wanes as they get older and understands themselves more and gets into a relationship. They definitely do not want to be male though (Tfft).

NonPlayerCharacter · 19/03/2024 08:19

I can't help but feel there's no point engaging with someone who actually berated women for not wanting to get naked with strange men and claimed not to know why anyone would have a problem with it. At the risk of being deleted again, that really is an indisputably fucked up position and I don't think it's possible to have a worthwhile discussion with someone who's coming at it from that angle. If they literally don't know why women wouldn't be happy with that then they honestly can't reason on the level at which the discussion has to happen.

akkakk · 19/03/2024 08:20

mivona · 19/03/2024 00:25

So by your logic all transwomen should be excluded from women's toilets, regardless of their innocent need to pee because they might have a penis. Having a penis does not equate to being violent. And all transmen must run the risk of violence in the men's toilets because you will see them as men regardless of what is in their underwear. Who gives a shit if they're traumatised as long as you are "safe".

It is just so bloody reductive.

You have posted several times about all that transwomen want is to innocently pee…

if so then there are male facilities in which they can do that, no one is stopping them… there is no issue, no threat to them, no record of any issues… as a bloke I can confirm that no bloke cares if a chap wants to wear a dress and pee in the gents - in some circumstances they might be teased but they are totally safe, they won’t be assaulted…

however, women have and are assaulted by men and that statistically includes those who identify as women… so in what world would you allow men to enter a women’s space?!

the concept that they innocently want to pee is gaslighting of the highest order, it is not innocent and in many cases it is not a desire to pee… so you then have to ask what is their motivation?

no man that I know would ever want to have a woman feel threatened by them, they go out of their way to protect women - and that is how it should be, there is no risk to the man identifying as a women - there is huge risk for women…

simple solution - men use their space, women their space. A transwoman is a man.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.