Those who raised serious grievances against managers, what was the outcome?

[Quirkyme]

I know that plenty of people raise grievances against managers. However, I mostly hear of the managers getting a little slap on the wrist and eventually the person who raised the grievance leaves.

Have you ever raised a serious grievance against a manager, like I mean, the grievance being hugely incriminating beyond belief? What was the outcome?

I’ve reported my bullying manager this week regarding committing multiple data breaches sharing my personal employment information on an open platform, and I’m in the process of writing a grievance including that and many other events. When I’m going through the incidents and evidence now, basically reliving it all… I honestly can’t believe what’s occurred, it’s so shocking it’s unreal.

I’m not sure what will come of it all.

Have you been in a similar situation? What was the outcome? Were they moved suspended/sacked? Or did it have any bearing on their future employment/promotions?

Did you receive "justice" or a result you were happy with or did you have to escalate it via tribunal/lawsuit?

I've worked for a civil service dept for 20 years and unless it was something illegal and I had irrefutable proof (we work in an environment with very stringent security rules) I wouldn't bother, I'd just change jobs (within the same employer). I've seen senior managers bully people relentlessly and they just get moved around. Waste of energy. On the plus side, I'm never likely to get sacked or made redundant, have a great pension/holiday allowance, good sick pay, flexible working etc. You learn to roll with the punches.

And I'm a manager myself (middle management) and we do close ranks when it concerns employees and cover each other's backs. Other managers and senior managers are more valuable to my own self of sense protection than those lower than the food chain. It's just how it works unfortunately although I know it's morally wrong.

Name changed for this.

Initially, the higher-ups closed ranks and tried to fob the whole thing off. So I pushed back, hard and he ended up formally disciplined - I don’t know to what extent, but I think it stalled his career.

I left the team on a temporary sideways move, then another sideways move, which then lead to promotion, and really reignited my career. He also left the team, but willingly or not, I don’t know.

What I do know is that his name popped up in the obituaries of company staff/pensioners a few months ago. Also, from a little internet searching, I’m pretty certain he had been guilty of drunk driving and banned, and later, of driving while disqualified and with excess alcohol in his system. He got a suspended prison sentence for that.

I don’t believe in karma, but he behaved terribly, and my goodness, it seems like his life unravelled. I am neither happy nor sad about this, it was a long time ago.

God that’s horrible. In the case I spoke about v.high up in the company protecting those being shit on from a great height below. Thankfully it ended up in a disciplinary and a significant pay out. I can’t imagine being you. Civil service for you though.

Can I ask, so do you cover each other's back even when you have witnessed a manager bullying relentlessly as you mentioned in your other comment?

How is that more valuable to your sense of self as a manager in those instances?

I knew HR was bad or as we say "not for the employee" but to hear middle management say this in the face of bullying instances witnessed is off.

OP I can completely relate to your viewpoint - I had a toxic boss about 10 years ago (bit more now) and I totally do hope that karma gets her.

And of course, when complaints were made about her, they were ignored. I left, she's still there, other people left too. Goodness knows why so many organisations facilitate poor management. You get a lot more out of people when you manage them fairly and well.

I'm in a leadership team and recently had a complaint about management style/behaviour of a colleague from someone more jnr. We looked into it, discussed with both people involved and rejigged the team. It's settled down now and both are trying to make an effort, but we're staying close to it to make sure everyone is OK. These things can be handled well!

I find it hard to adopt or agree with the concept of karma too. I think it's something humans just do to make themselves feel better in situations where they've been wronged tbh.

It's a nice thought and all that, and I have friends who know a bit about what's happening who believe in karma, and say relevant karma related things. But I think it's just a nice thought tbh and can be a comfort when said to a friend tbh. But that's it. As cynical as it sounds.

But did it actually help the direct report? IME it just makes life more difficult and they leave anyway.

Very short-sighted - what happens when you're the victim?

Are you really saying that if you witnesses bullying you would lie to HR about it.

Heaven help your underlings.

Yes, this is my experience too. Its just not worth it. I have seen it in various public sector roles.

Without being outing, the civil service dept I work for employs a lot of people but is a very small world. Senior managers move sites a lot and people tend to stay employed for 20/30 yrs or more. It's also a very tough environment where a lot of staff face violence and abuse from our "clientele" because of the nature of where we work. The worst bullying I've seen is from senior managers and no I'd never speak out about it or be a witness etc. I'd be subjected to the same (and probably have been if I thought about my whole working experience) and it would ruin my own job prospects. I've also worked with toxic employees who bully upwards and we do have strong unionism embedded and they just get moved around. Again I would just move jobs 🤷🏻‍♀️

I was bullied by a manager, this affected my performance which I was punished for, maybe fairly, but when I raised a grievance about the bullying which was backed up by my HR rep and several colleagues, I was managed out and my manager was promoted.

Different job, while I was on mat leave a colleague was harassed & treated so poorly by our manager that the colleague developed PTSD and quit, HR aware and did nothing. I didn’t return after leave!

Sorry, i realise that was half info as I was on the move. Yes, the direct report has a new manager and more support now. They feel things are much better.

My current manager says the same thing about my former manager and their colleagues and management - and he's "one of them", although because he isn't, and doesn't toe the line, his career is stalled. Despite the fact that our team pull off more than all the others, we are the "naughty corner" and none of us are going anywhere. Except in my case, as I am six months from retirement - and that was the only reason I fought my last manager, as in I was coming to the end of my career and nobody was going to employ an older disabled person. Otherwise I would have left.

She was promoted and given a salary increase and I was brought up on a disciplinary hearing. I left but she’s still there.

A year or so after my report of bullying that lost me my role (described upthread), the manager who I had reported it to came to me and said she was being bullied by the person I had originally reported and wanted my support. I said unfortunately, my complaint was said to never have happened so I can't help you...

Family member has just gone through this. They received excellent input from ACAS about how to manage the process and how to seek compensation.

Wow, just unbelievable. I couldn't and wouldn't work like this. In my experience (middle management), this isn't the case.

Those "down the food chain" as you so disparagingly call them are the people who work hard to deliver results for you, who implement your strategies, who deliver on your objectives. They are the teams that respond to your management style and how you treat them.

Without them, you have nothing. When the time comes and your team are fed up of you and stop being in effort and your performance drops,do you really think your senior buddy's will save you?

There's a lot naivety in your post and one or two changes at your level will break up that cosy cartel you have in place and it will fall apart. I've seen it repeatedly over the years.

Yes I have. Similar to you, bullying to the extent I felt sick every day. Discussing me in meetings I wasn't present at, telling other employees I was a thief and I liar. Promoting a junior employee into my position. I only found out when I tried to join a meeting and she told me I wasn't needed as X was now doing my job. Repeatedly humiliating me when I had arranged meetings with local businesses by not turning up.
She bullied others as well but I was her main target.
I went to HR along with another staff member and was told it would be dealt with. It wasn't, they told her that I'd complained and that she needed to change. She didn't, she just doubled her efforts to humiliate me. I eventually walked out, phoned HR and told them I was suing for constructive dismissal. Within half an hour she had left a message on my answer phone groveling and begging me to return. I wasn't falling for that, she was a complete psychopath and was never going to change.
I received a significant amount in compensation. I could have held out for more but it was more about proving a point than the money.
I completely changed careers for the better. She was sacked a few months later.

I took out a grievance years ago against my managers failure to protect me from bullying and harassment at work.
I got a mealy mouthed apology but eventually ended up going off longterm sick and never returned.
The bully was eventually given the opportunity to resign which he took so doubtless went on to do the same again elsewhere.
The mangers all continued in place.
I was supported by my union in taking a case for personal injury against my employers which took 6 years but eventually I got a biggish cheque and ill health retirement.
What I actually wanted was my health and my career that I loved.

Not quite the same, but I got a new job then before I left wrote a detailed email to the CEO and corporate HR outlining the bullying and mismanagement that we were being subjected to. Unbeknown to the company all my senior peers had inputted into this note, but I sent it as they were too frightened to stand up to him. Our local country HR already knew about the bullying, but did nothing. It did the trick and he got fired a few months later.

I have and I left with a settlement. I wasn't going to stick around after raising what I did and they left shortly after me.

I'm sorry to say when I did raise it to a board, it didn't go well. They had too much power/influence and won out. They eventually continued to get complaints over the years until others realised how bad they were but I had left long before that. It was really disappointing to not be believed.

I've been in a similar situation a year or so back.

Bullied for 4 years by 2 people who came in after me, but I kept my head down and tried to ignore it.
Eventually one of them did something that ACAS described as gross misconduct (due to undermining me and bringing the company into disrepute) and effected some of our service providers.
I called my line managers in for a meeting. They were initially quite shocked at what had been done, and said they would retract what had been done and say they had to apologise to me and the service provider.
Two weeks later when I asked what was happening, they said they'd decided it wasn't as bad as all that and nothing was happening.
So I put a grievance in against both of the 2 people. I had nearly 30 pages of incidents, although a lot were unwitnessed or unprovable.

The line managers kept telling me one thing to my face and then doing another. At one point I had an email conversation which went along the lines of:
"LM: We will never do anything about X and their payment without consulting you first.
Me: Why has X just emailed and said that you spoke to them?
LM: I didn't speak to them.
Me: Why do they think you have? Have they got the wrong person. I'll tell them they're wrong and they don't need to worry.
LM: Oh, well I might have had a little conversation but it was nothing about the payment.
Me: Why are they saying you talked about the payment then?
LM: Well I did mention it I suppose...."

And that was typical.

They decided to split the grievance into two and do them separately, which I did query as their bullying was very much done together, with them backing each other up.
They brought in an external HR company. So first one was done by the company. So the day before they sent the initial report over the HR company was emailing me, and they told me that their report was supporting my grievance. Direct words, no possibility of misinterpretation.
The report went in, and no one apparently other than one of my line managers had seen it for the first two weeks. But one of the bullies started telling people it had been dismissed.
Six weeks later, I receive a report that ignores all witnessed events and says it isn't upheld due to no evidence, and a week later I receive another report for the other bully saying it's also dismissed and they've only talked to the two bullies as they didn't need to talk to me at all. (they didn't talk about the other bullying at all in the first one)

I went off sick (and the bullies and my LMs went round lying their heads off. Then got a new job and resigned.

However I wasn't the first person on their radar for bullying, and people at the firm started putting 2 and 2 together and noticing that anyone that had worked with them had left fairly quickly within a few months, and began to realise that the small things they had seen were actually part of a bigger picture. So they had a pretty uncomfortable time while they tried to play the victim, and no one believed them. One of them is still there and I know no one still wants to work with them, nor trusts them an inch.
One of the LMs resigned shortly afterwards and also left, I suspect because he knew that the report had been altered (not the one who it was sent to) and didn't feel he could speak up, but didn't want to be involved if there was fall out. The other one lasted about another 6 months trying to pretend that they'd done nothing wrong before there was a reshuffle and they went, I suspect with a bit of encouragement.

I'd say don't bother with the grievance. Go off on sick, get a new job and resign. Only reason for doing the grievance is to claim constructive dismissal, because you won't get anything else out of it.

I'd like to see far more legal standing for ACAS. There's a lot of guidelines like "they should speak to witnesses", but if they don't there isn't something set in stone. Or "they should do it within a reasonable timeframe" - mine was 4 months before they'd even decided what to do. ACAS said when I asked them that they didn't think 4 months was reasonable, but a tribunal might decide differently.