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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Making kids choose 'teams' for PE - assumed this was an old fashioned thing?

240 replies

Devicey · 28/02/2024 16:45

But told today that it happens every week at DCs primary.

Honestly thought this was something I have just seen on films and assumed wasn't done anymore?

Always similar kids left to the last couple that no one wants on their team.

AIBU or are there far better ways to divide up a class of kids for PE?

OP posts:
Kittybythelighthouse · 03/03/2024 01:45

Danbak45 · 03/03/2024 00:48

I’m in my 23rd year of teaching PE and I have never done this and totally disagree with it . We were actually told in our training year not to do this for all these reasons!

So glad to hear a sensible PE teacher voice!

Tespo · 03/03/2024 17:02

PE is the only subject where the teachers can let those less able wither without support. it's not on.

OP should indeed raise it with the school.

One of my best memories from school was when I got to pick, and focused on a friendship group, who mostly weren't that good. we lost the game terribly but it changed the dynamic. My mates enjoyed the game, the others realised they were going to win, and empathised with the motivation, so all were happy...At least this is the narrative I have developed in the decades since.

user1471554720 · 03/03/2024 17:16

iwiporangi

Millions of adults DO survive being picked last etc. But what type of people does that make them?

Uber competitive and trusting no one re jobs etc, or lovely, kind, helpful.

It can go either way. I was last to bw picked, am VERY competitive in jobs, and I don't go out of my way to support others. I feel so strongly that I have to prove myself can"t bear being unsuccessful at anything. Even if I was picked 4th from last, it would have nade me kinder and less competitive.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 03/03/2024 17:26

I am shocked this still goes on, I thought it went out with the Ark.

A teacher going A B or 1 2 etc is by far the fairest way to decide.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 03/03/2024 17:27

Even if I was picked 4th from last, it would have made me kinder and less competitive

Yes, I'd have been quite happy to be 4th, the best I managed was 2nd from last!

I mean I was rubbish at sports, but that wasn't the point.

changergranger · 05/03/2024 12:40

When I was younger I noticed that there were certain "lessons" at school that didn't seem to be about teaching you to do things - instead we just had to do things and those who were good at it were rewarded/praised.

Music, Art and P.E. come to mind. The teachers only seemed interested in the ones who were good at it and I don't recall any actual teaching happening. In Art every week we drew a picture or painted etc. and then the teacher would comment on those that were good. Those that weren't as good may be given some feedback e.g. 'your pear is too big' but we were never taught how to actually improve. Yes I can erase my pear and make it smaller but how do I learn to actually draw things with the right proportions in the first place?

I assumed this was normal until as an adult I worked at a very nice school with specialist subject teachers and I sat in an Art lesson where the Art teacher was actually teaching students how to draw and it was eye-opening. I really wanted to be good at Art but I didn't know how to get better. "Practice makes perfect" was thrown around but an Art lesson once a week just practicing your (already lacking) fruit-drawing skills doesn't help. I never even considered learning in my own time - I assumed that some people were simply good at Art and some people simply bad at it. I lamented that I wasn't good at it. This was back in the day where we were told that "everyone is good at something" and I kept waiting for my "thing" to jump out at me.

P.E. was the worst for me. It seemed like every week we were brought outside and made to play a team sport, with team captains, humiliation and the rest, as has already been discussed in depth. I do not really understand the idea that P.E. is about winning or competition. It, like all lessons, should be about teaching and learning. It should be teaching coordination, motor skills, fitness, looking after your body, avoiding injury and learning to take pleasure in exercise.

Competition, if done right, can be fun and so games and competitions are sometimes used in all kinds of lessons. Obviously it particularly lends itself to P.E. and I understand you need to actually play team sports in P.E. If you're learning football skills I understand that has to involve playing football in teams, as that is how the game is designed to be played.

But a previous poster recalled seeing two team captains arguing over who had to take the last person to be picked and the teacher not stepping in - instead commenting that it was "tough luck". This is exactly how it was when I was young and I want to point out how absolutely insane it is that this is still a thing.

When I was a primary school teacher, about ten years ago, when teaching (Maths as an example) lessons, I was expected to pitch the lesson to cater to all abilities, differentiate based on instruction, task, support, resources. I was expected to meet all children where they were at and make sure they all made progress. (Accelerated progress including after-school intervention sessions for those who were 'behind').

I was expected to make sure all students learned in a supportive environment and were safe to make mistakes. I was expected to instil a growth mindset instead of a fixed mindset, where students did not label themselves as "bad" at Maths but saw it as something they could improve on. I was expected to come down hard on those who were unkind or cruel to others about their academic ability.

Can you imagine the heaps of shit I would be in if every single Maths lesson I gave the two top students the power to pick 'teams' and spent the lesson not ever actually teaching how to do multiplication but forcing them to competitively work out multiplication sums against each other. If you get it wrong, you get shouted it or mocked by your peers and often even your teachers. If you're shit at multiplication you always get picked last and the team captains fight to make the other take you.

As a teacher, on witnessing this, I simply express to the team captain that it's tough luck. After all, we all know that student is a deadweight but they have to go somewhere so tough luck.

Imagine if I ignored the kids who couldn't do multiplication and focused only on those who excelled, inviting them to join my extracurricular team. The students at the top of my class are now labelled 'Mathsy'. Bad luck to everyone else. I'm sure you'll find something you're good at. Maybe you'll be 'Sporty' instead. Or 'woodworky'. Or 'musical'. Either way, you're not Mathsy so you're not my problem.

I get that Maths and P.E. are different but why are they so different? Why weren't the teachers spending extra time with those of us who couldn't catch? Teaching us skills and differentiating tasks, spending time with us giving us support e.g. to correct our stance or footwork or whatever?

Why didn't anyone ever instil an idea that exercise is for everyone and it vital to being healthy? Sure, you might enjoy some forms more than others, and yes it's fun to try and win, but overall the idea is that you keep your body healthy and really reduce your chances of dying young. Why is it not so much more important that all kids are given these messages about their physical health more than Maths?

I accept that some are more naturally gifted and it will come easier to others. I accept that I would never have been an Olympic athlete or famous artist. But perhaps, with some actual empathy and adequate teaching I'd have got a bit better at drawing my fruit bowls. I may or may not have cared enough to spend my time improving at home. But ideally I'd have actually believed that it was possible for me to be as good as the 'Arty' kids one day if I put the effort in.

Perhaps I never would have liked team sports but I would have understood the value of exercise and instead got into something else - like running. I would have known that anybody who puts the effort in can get to a point where they can go out for a run every morning.

I genuinely didn't understand this concept until I was an adult. It wasn't that I disliked sports or exercise (although I did) - the reason I didn't do it is because I thought I was bad at it and it simply wasn't an option for me.

I would have loved to join a choir but I couldn't sing so it wasn't an option. I would have loved to be on the running team but I was the slowest in the class at running so I couldn't (and in my mind, would never be capable of doing). These are all things I genuinely believed and didn't question.

Kind of a side note - I know research on streaming is mixed but I think, for something like P.E. perhaps it's a lesson where streaming would have made the most sense (and ironically was one of the few lessons that wasn't streamed). I think all students would prefer to be doing P.E. with people of similar abilities to them.

scotsmum2015 · 05/03/2024 19:09

@changergranger that is probably the best most considered response I’ve read anywhere, on anything.

strikes a cord with me. I’m in healthcare, not teaching but I hope other teachers read this and it gives them food for thought.

Wooloohooloo · 05/03/2024 20:53

@tespo precisely and the only subject where abilities are mixed. I was an academic high achiever but useless with PE and next understood why all other subjects were grouped by ability but if you were crap at PE, it was acceptable to be humiliated and belittled and placed with those way more capable than yourself.

Treaclewell · 06/03/2024 09:04

I have wondered why there isn't Remedial PE. But I suspect that PE teachers simply cannot break down skills to the basics in order to teach them.

JustDiscoveredBueno · 06/03/2024 10:21

@changergranger outstanding post. Thank you.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 06/03/2024 10:22

Treaclewell · 06/03/2024 09:04

I have wondered why there isn't Remedial PE. But I suspect that PE teachers simply cannot break down skills to the basics in order to teach them.

The happiest PE lessons I ever had were when the teacher gave up on me and my friend in tennis and sent us down to a wall at the end of the school buildings with a foam ball and short tennis rackets. We made up our own game to suit our ability and spent the hour happily playing it. With the bonus that it meant we weren’t spoiling everyone else’s games by our escaped balls rolling all over their courts.
I had a feeling at the time that this would not have been regarded as pedagogically correct but it was so much more sensible than torturing us and everyone else by making us play proper tennis which we simply weren’t up to.

greenacrylicpaint · 06/03/2024 10:29

@changergranger abso-bloody-lutely

ideally you would have 2 (or more) periods of pe a week.
one for moving in any shape or form for fun, forming good habits for future health & wellbeing - no grades given
and one learning about and playing a sport - graded on individual improvement

ImCamembertTheBigCheese · 06/03/2024 10:37

@changergranger What an excellent post. I too felt annoyed all those years later that in PE or Art, we were never taught anything either. You were given a badminton racket for example and just expected to play against someone else. If you were with someone who had the techniques to play well and they won, you lost and had to sit out as they played the winner of another match and you just sat on the side-lines for the rest of the lesson.

Same with the trampoline, each kid got a minute on it, the rest of the time you just stood round the edge and watch other kids have a go. Just bouncing up and down, no direction or ideas on how to jump higher etc.

Leypt1 · 08/03/2024 08:54

changergranger · 05/03/2024 12:40

When I was younger I noticed that there were certain "lessons" at school that didn't seem to be about teaching you to do things - instead we just had to do things and those who were good at it were rewarded/praised.

Music, Art and P.E. come to mind. The teachers only seemed interested in the ones who were good at it and I don't recall any actual teaching happening. In Art every week we drew a picture or painted etc. and then the teacher would comment on those that were good. Those that weren't as good may be given some feedback e.g. 'your pear is too big' but we were never taught how to actually improve. Yes I can erase my pear and make it smaller but how do I learn to actually draw things with the right proportions in the first place?

I assumed this was normal until as an adult I worked at a very nice school with specialist subject teachers and I sat in an Art lesson where the Art teacher was actually teaching students how to draw and it was eye-opening. I really wanted to be good at Art but I didn't know how to get better. "Practice makes perfect" was thrown around but an Art lesson once a week just practicing your (already lacking) fruit-drawing skills doesn't help. I never even considered learning in my own time - I assumed that some people were simply good at Art and some people simply bad at it. I lamented that I wasn't good at it. This was back in the day where we were told that "everyone is good at something" and I kept waiting for my "thing" to jump out at me.

P.E. was the worst for me. It seemed like every week we were brought outside and made to play a team sport, with team captains, humiliation and the rest, as has already been discussed in depth. I do not really understand the idea that P.E. is about winning or competition. It, like all lessons, should be about teaching and learning. It should be teaching coordination, motor skills, fitness, looking after your body, avoiding injury and learning to take pleasure in exercise.

Competition, if done right, can be fun and so games and competitions are sometimes used in all kinds of lessons. Obviously it particularly lends itself to P.E. and I understand you need to actually play team sports in P.E. If you're learning football skills I understand that has to involve playing football in teams, as that is how the game is designed to be played.

But a previous poster recalled seeing two team captains arguing over who had to take the last person to be picked and the teacher not stepping in - instead commenting that it was "tough luck". This is exactly how it was when I was young and I want to point out how absolutely insane it is that this is still a thing.

When I was a primary school teacher, about ten years ago, when teaching (Maths as an example) lessons, I was expected to pitch the lesson to cater to all abilities, differentiate based on instruction, task, support, resources. I was expected to meet all children where they were at and make sure they all made progress. (Accelerated progress including after-school intervention sessions for those who were 'behind').

I was expected to make sure all students learned in a supportive environment and were safe to make mistakes. I was expected to instil a growth mindset instead of a fixed mindset, where students did not label themselves as "bad" at Maths but saw it as something they could improve on. I was expected to come down hard on those who were unkind or cruel to others about their academic ability.

Can you imagine the heaps of shit I would be in if every single Maths lesson I gave the two top students the power to pick 'teams' and spent the lesson not ever actually teaching how to do multiplication but forcing them to competitively work out multiplication sums against each other. If you get it wrong, you get shouted it or mocked by your peers and often even your teachers. If you're shit at multiplication you always get picked last and the team captains fight to make the other take you.

As a teacher, on witnessing this, I simply express to the team captain that it's tough luck. After all, we all know that student is a deadweight but they have to go somewhere so tough luck.

Imagine if I ignored the kids who couldn't do multiplication and focused only on those who excelled, inviting them to join my extracurricular team. The students at the top of my class are now labelled 'Mathsy'. Bad luck to everyone else. I'm sure you'll find something you're good at. Maybe you'll be 'Sporty' instead. Or 'woodworky'. Or 'musical'. Either way, you're not Mathsy so you're not my problem.

I get that Maths and P.E. are different but why are they so different? Why weren't the teachers spending extra time with those of us who couldn't catch? Teaching us skills and differentiating tasks, spending time with us giving us support e.g. to correct our stance or footwork or whatever?

Why didn't anyone ever instil an idea that exercise is for everyone and it vital to being healthy? Sure, you might enjoy some forms more than others, and yes it's fun to try and win, but overall the idea is that you keep your body healthy and really reduce your chances of dying young. Why is it not so much more important that all kids are given these messages about their physical health more than Maths?

I accept that some are more naturally gifted and it will come easier to others. I accept that I would never have been an Olympic athlete or famous artist. But perhaps, with some actual empathy and adequate teaching I'd have got a bit better at drawing my fruit bowls. I may or may not have cared enough to spend my time improving at home. But ideally I'd have actually believed that it was possible for me to be as good as the 'Arty' kids one day if I put the effort in.

Perhaps I never would have liked team sports but I would have understood the value of exercise and instead got into something else - like running. I would have known that anybody who puts the effort in can get to a point where they can go out for a run every morning.

I genuinely didn't understand this concept until I was an adult. It wasn't that I disliked sports or exercise (although I did) - the reason I didn't do it is because I thought I was bad at it and it simply wasn't an option for me.

I would have loved to join a choir but I couldn't sing so it wasn't an option. I would have loved to be on the running team but I was the slowest in the class at running so I couldn't (and in my mind, would never be capable of doing). These are all things I genuinely believed and didn't question.

Kind of a side note - I know research on streaming is mixed but I think, for something like P.E. perhaps it's a lesson where streaming would have made the most sense (and ironically was one of the few lessons that wasn't streamed). I think all students would prefer to be doing P.E. with people of similar abilities to them.

This is SO spot on, thank you

Josienpaul · 11/03/2024 20:52

Kittybythelighthouse · 01/03/2024 21:57

Exactly! People like @Josienpaul acting like “real life” requires every adult to try out for sports teams constantly. Have they experienced real life? 😂 The reality is that in real life you don’t have to ever play a sport unless you fancy it and if you do you’re either pro level anyway or chances are you’ll be made to feel welcome and certainly not mocked, excluded, and ridiculed every week for months on end.

On the other hand, in real life, you probably will need to use some of the skills you learn in other subjects which don’t require the public ritual humiliation of children. It’s such a sincerely stupid argument. Depressing to see a teacher making it.

Oh grow up!
I said I’d never done it and hadn’t ever seen it happen, but yes, if kids are that distraught about it, they’ll find life really tough. It doesn’t say bullying in the post, it’s about popularity which is why I don’t agree that it’s a good idea in high school to let kids choose their own teams. I never said I agree with the concept but actually in real life, yes, only the best get picked! And in real life, you have do do tons of things you don’t choose to do! As you said, many of the subjects are transferable and having to do things you don’t like and dealing with it in a responsible and respectful manner is one of them. Real life! Have you lived real life?

Pupils have to do maths too but you wouldn’t hear parents complain (well actually, that’s a lie, of course parents will complain) if the low ability in maths yet football star didn’t get picked for the maths competition!

Some kids are good at sports, some are good at maths etc etc, it may be the only subject that gets these kids into school and the teacher has made a professional judgement on it. I may not agree with it but I find it depressing that people cannot let professionals make their own decisions. I’m a mother, I understand love, but there are too many parents interfering in their child’s education and there will genuinely be no teachers left soon.

Honestly, the amount of people leaving education is staggering. The main cited issue after workload, is parents.

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