To think now is not the right time for tax cuts

[jm9138]

So Hunt wants to cut NI having already cut it last Autumn. The total costs of these cuts will be £13.5 bn. To put that in perspective, this would more than cover the £9bn real terms cut in the education budget since 2010 and with the total NHS dentistry bill being £3bn he could double that and cover the education budget fall with £1.5bn left. Maybe with that he could, I don’t know, fund some private operations to reduce some of the NHS waiting times. AIBU to think that maybe there are other things to focus on now than tax cuts?

So which of the things did I state were not facts? Your facts are also true and I would agree we need to broaden the net of where we get tax.

I couldn't agree more. Somehow social housing became a dirty concept.

Oh dear. Do you actually have any objective facts or knowledge to back what you say or just regurgitating whatever you read in Guardian.

Wealth taxes do not work. Macron scrapped them in 2017 after coming to power because saw that the actions of his socialist predecessor had led to reduced tax take from the rich as they were leaving the country. He roles back taxes, calling France ‘Cuba without the sun’

I also agree .That money is needed for basics like education and dentistry. They've completely lost the plot and think its OK for us to live like it's a third world country. While spraying money around interfering in other countries business like were still some Victorian superpower !

Your anecdotes about your local school should not form the basis of tax policy. The inputs are way more complex.

I think they are so terrified that the monied would leave the country they dare not do this. Oh sorry, did I say monied - 'wealth generators' is the term isn't it.

The wealth generators tend to be mobile already. It’s the older population with a property that’s increased massively, potentially a BTL or holiday home. I think 1 in 7 over 70s has a 2nd home. That’s the core vote though & so they won’t upset them. There are also more over 65s now than under 15s.

Disclaimer: Not bashing boomers, realise they aren’t all rich, blah blah blah.

@jm9138 ,

‘I think they are so terrified that the monied would leave the country they dare not do this. Oh sorry, did I say monied - 'wealth generators' is the term isn't it. Given you don't pay any tax on wealth I don't really care where they go’

The wealthy always try to appeal to be taxed at a low rate by saying that they will leave if not. But they don’t, bar a tiny minority.

The bankers and hedgies played that bluff with the 50% top rate. A few hedgies decamped to Geneva and came back with their tails between their legs when it was lowered to 45%. People have families here, schools, friends….

Yes instead of cutting taxes use the money to improve services! Everyone knows the nhs is on its knees. Schools and police are underfunded. Birmingham council has gone bust they're going to close most of their libraries. And yet there was a surplus in January and they want to cut taxes....

Of course not. Just voter bribes.

Wealth taxes do not work. Macron scrapped them in 2017 after coming to power because saw that the actions of his socialist predecessor had led to reduced tax take from the rich as they were leaving the country. He roles back taxes, calling France ‘Cuba without the sun’

Taxes in general are pretty different in France

Isn't this the same stupid policy proposal that tanked the mortgage market last year?

"The real problem is why 10 million working age people are not working. "

That's a soundbite. .

@lemmefinish ,

General wealth taxes don’t as they hit the moderately wealthy, whereas the truly wealthy duck them.

Property taxes do work and have worked. If you scaled up the old ‘rates’ to today’s values, that would be a significant tax contribution. And they are fair, the owner of the property has to pay the tax, no issues of residency etc.

Well, there's a general election around the corner, op, and the Tories are desperate to cling on to power - did you seriously expect any different from them? They have form for the Great Pre Election Taxation Reduction Bribary. So yabu to expect any different.

To be serious for a moment though, the easiest taxes to reduce are the most visible ones - NI and income tax. When those get reduced, the electorate notice it, and sometimes vote accordingly. Add the cost of living crisis, and on the face of it, it's a really welcome relief.

Only when they need the NHS or education, or other public services, will they realise how short sighted it is. Tories are amazing at stealth taxes. Look up local council tax gearing effect. Since 2010 they've systematically reduced central funding for local authorities, with the result that council tax levy has increased and the public picks up the bill through increased local taxation. The LA gets the blame, the government largely gets away with it because they can blame the LAs for not spending money wisely enough. Fewer NHS dentists? Denplan. That's enforced privatisation - another form of taxation, except it's 'optional'. But if you don't pay it, and you can't find an NHS dentist then you're fucked. Fewer police? Raise council tax.

NI contributions pay for the state pension of course. But cuts won't affect today's pensioners (who are more traditionally, born out with statistics, Conservative voters), it will affect those who need a state pension in a few decades. So the can is kicked down the road in favour of a quick fix today, in the Great Pre Election Tax Reduction Bribary.

Oh dear. So what about the real terms cuts in education and dentistry - are they not facts?

Have you had your head in the sand about access to NHS dentistry?

As about my anecdotes - yes you are right they are anecdotes. Does not stop them being true. But just specifically on music have a read of this (from 6 years ago and do you think things have improved?):

https://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/46367

I don't read the Guardian. I don't read the Mail, Express or Telegraph either. I would not call myself a socialist and the left wing people I know definitely wouldn't. I think everyone should contribute something whatever they earn and would be happy with a single flat tax rate so those that earn more pay more but not proportionally more. I think the majority of things should be kept out of Government control. But I also think some things have to be delivered by Government and if there is money to throw around and those things that should be delivered are not being because of lack of funds I will question whether government priorities are right.

Your comment on wealth tax. You do know the French still have a wealth tax don't you? It is just based on property value now. I would still go for something like this, but acknowledge it can be complicated. I think the bigger fairness issue is the failure to adequately tax unearned income in the same way as earned income.

The people I know who don't work are either:
out of work because it's unsafe in the workplace due to disabilities, bullying, being unable to advocate for themselves.
Bedbound and on a hospital list for years without treatment.
Stay at home parent as childcare is more expensive than minimum wage salary.

Essentially government mismanagement.

A question, we were surprised when my partner started getting their state pension that they no longer had to pay NI contributions - they are still in full time employment.

If that was changed would it make much difference?

Tax cuts are meaningless and forgotten almost immediately.

If they must do something about taxes (and I think they must), I'd far rather they tackle the problem of fiscal drag - both for now and the future.

Tax cut offs should raise each year with inflation.

If they also want to address why so many people leave work and retire early, there needs to be legislation that makes it possible to ease out of work more gently as you get to that age. At the moment it's still mostly a choice betwene full time or no time - but the right to reduce hours down as you get older would help keep people who wanted to work but can no longer face or do a 40 hour week. Plus, age discrimination is still rife. This might also help the pension shortages because more people could still earn something if they wanted to.

I wonder why they don't make it more attractive for companies/staff to offer their staff free private healthcare including dentistry. Ie don't tax it as a benefit and allow companies to offset against tax - it would simultaneously improve the survival rate and take the burden off of the NHS.

It seems so simple to me that there must be a reason that they don't do it.

Once you reach retirement age you no longer pay NI. So they just got a 9% tax cut (or whatever the rate currently is).

Good idea actually. A healthy (and educated) workforce is a productive workforce. I don't think the government got the memo.

If they also want to address why so many people leave work and retire early, there needs to be legislation that makes it possible to ease out of work more gently as you get to that age. At the moment it's still mostly a choice betwene full time or no time - but the right to reduce hours down as you get older would help keep people who wanted to work but can no longer face or do a 40 hour week. Plus, age discrimination is still rife. This might also help the pension shortages because more people could still earn something if they wanted to.

A good point. I am afraid ideas are something all parties seem to be short of at the moment.

Well, they can cut public sector pensions and welfare. It's unsustainable for them to be going up by 5/10% per year regardless of productivity whilst the private sector (which pays for it all) either has no pay increases or small amounts. The future unfunded public sector pensions bill is running into the trillions now. How is that going to be paid? By the younger generations who will pay more tax and get less services?

And people will vote with their feet when it comes to paying more tax, they will simply either stop working and jump on the bandwagon or reduce their hours to part time so they don't breach the tax threshold. I know a few people who have got so fed up they have already done this. Very few martyrs who want to pay more tax for less in return.

The ratio of those who pay tax to those who don't is already completely screwed. It's unsustainable whether you like it or not.

YANBU. It’s as though the Tories are on a different planet. I’ve never known public services to be in such a dire state and after 14 years in power, the government needs to stop trying to blame Labour.

Totally agree!