I should no longer have to work, seeing as my husband has ' made it '

[klangr]

Said my mother.

Quick background. My parents both come from nothing. Very very poor- we are talking going hungry as kids. Especially my mum. Very very bad circumstances. Abuse too. Think, my grand parents had too many kids- they gave some of them away to work for rich families age 10. It's even worse than that, I could go on.

My father set up his own business and my mum helped out a lot in the beginning and took care of the family. It was a family business with all of my dad's siblings etc and they didn't treat my mum particularly well or respect her. Neither did my dad. She had a pretty shit deal.

Eventually when the business took off enough, she refused to keep working there. She looked after her children and got the odd part time job, because my dad only gave her a tiny household allowance - because she didn't contribute enough in his eyes. Because she didn't work in the business full time and help out. Even when she helped out though, he never paid her anyway.

Anyway, my dad was also pretty abusive to my mum. His entire reason was always that she didn't help out. That was the bee in his Bonet. That she didn't work in the business. He made our child hood miserable. We were always walking on egg shells. A lot of screaming and shouting and occasionally hitting my mum. All because she was lazy apparently. Wow just writing that down makes me realise how awful it really is. Anyway, I often wished he would die when I was a child. I just felt everything would be easier if he was no longer there. He wasn't abusive to me though.

In any case, my mum's point was always the fact that she did contribute in the beginning to the business and that when things took off, she shouldn't have needed to go and help out anymore, especially as she hated the environment and felt ridiculed there and treated badly.

So she didn't work always. Sometimes she had part time jobs. She'd go out to lunches and coffees with friends and play tennis and my dad just despised her for not pulling her weight in the business.

I am not sure where I'm going with this. I guess I read so many threads on here about women who don't work etc and how they're not contribution to the family. How they're living off their partner, rather than recognising that they fulfil the home role.

My mum really felt she shouldn't need to work anymore, because my dad was very successful. And on some level, I can imagine some judgement coming from some of the women on here about that attitude.

What does everyone think about this ?

When I was growing up, it was common for mothers to be housewives and the husband to be the breadwinner. That dynamic has changed today due to rising costs of living and the continuef growth of women's rights and independence. I would say that being a sahm is akin to a full time job so I have no doubt she was working very hard your father just sounds nasty. Not sure why you are being judgemental of your mother, are you suggesting she deserved the abuse from your father because she was indeed a bit lazy and went out for lunches? There is no excuse for his behaviour. As an adult if you have a problem with your partner you work through it or you separate if you have fundamentally differing values, you don't stick around and terrorise everyone instead.

I can see your dad’s point - he “had to” work full time but she could just work/not work as she pleased, then go out for coffees and tennis while he worked! If tables turned, mumsnet would breathe fire on him!

However, if he didn’t like what was going on, he should have divorced her. Abuse is a shit choice. I’m sorry you had to witness all that as a child, OP.

Nobody deserves being hit.

Doesn't matter what they do.

Sounds like your father was extremely abusive and she was trying to protect herself as much as possible.

I think there are two separate issues here.

One is that nobody has the right to decide unilaterally that they are not going to work or contribute to the household financially. It is a shared responsibility and it is not unreasonable for anyone to state that they don't want to be the sole breadwinner. It would be unreasonable to dictate where someone should work but not unreasonable to expect them to work somewhere.

The second issue is that your dad was clearly abusive, and probably would have been whether your mum worked or not. The two aren't related in my view, but abuse is never justifiable in any circumstances. I'm sorry that your mum had to go through this, and that all of you had to witness it.

One of the many benefits of women working and maintaining their financial independence is that it can make it easier for them to leave when abuse starts. And that is one of the many reasons why I will be encouraging my dd to maintain her financial independence as a priority.

I'm not being judgemental! Oh my goodness that's not what I was trying to do with this post. I assumed some others would be.

I'm not. Why the fuck should she have gone to work ? Fuck that. She would still have had to wait on him hand and foot at home. She knew this, so she decided she only had energy for one job.

It's not like when she did work, there was any attempts of his to even clear a plate off the table or play with his own kids.

He was focused on himself and work only. Everything else was up to her. And I mean absolutely everything.

Good on her, sounds like the only bit of control over her life she had. I'm glad she managed to do things to bring her joy given the shit show of her life.

In an equal, loving partnership then no, I don't think a women should give up work if the other party is very successful, but quite frankly I'm fully in support of your DM because your dad sounds like an abusive bullying twat.

I have no sympathy for him because he also expected a housewife that waited on him hand and food at home, a completely subservient woman to him. So that's what you get when you want a housewife.

Also, back in those days it was a much more common arrangement that one party took care of the home and the other party went to work. That's the arrangement. He wanted his cake and to eat it too.

They never even paid her when she did work in the business. Total financial control. In fact it was good she had part time jobs SHE liked, because she actually made money for herself to spend on herself and on us. My dad was pretty wealthy and still she bought most things for us from her own tiny income.

So no, no sympathy for him.

He went to work, as did most men in his generation. He managed to make a career himself that made him very wealthy. Yet he was pissed off at everyone.

Do you know how many men went/ go out to work even longer hours and DIDNT make much money and still didn't hate on their wife and kids.

People working night shifts etc. making a pittance and still don't abuse their families.

No sympathy.

You can't put modern day opinions on something like this. Depending on how old they are
He is clearly abusive and his family toxic but even until fairly recently getting divorced and being a single parent was viewed as shameful but overall the abusiveness is the larger issue in this scenario.

It used to be totally normal for women to take care of the home and do little jobs for pin money, it's less normal nowadays people would say look after yourself, be financially independent, make sure you are putting into a pension.

I didn't work either when I had my kids. My husband earned 20 times what I did, and the childcare costs would have meant I was paying to work.
But the difference was it was a mutual agreement, my husband was totally generous- it was always our money not his, and he never ever questioned what I spent money on.
I raised the kids and kept the house. We had a cleaner too. I had side projects but my husband was supportive in every way.
So sad your mum had to put up with such an awful situation.

I hope she’s free of the fucker now. OP, how has growing up in a frankly toxic family affected you and your relationships? Did it affect your siblings? I hope if you are with someone it is a person who loves and respects you.

Yes OP is this dynamic still the same with your parents? How is your relationship with your father now?

She massively stood up to him. Not in the beginning, but after some years, she massively stood up for herself- but not all the way. She should have divorced him.

I know exactly how it was. Her refusing to work there, was her standing up for herself.

She would also shout and scream at him. Constant fights really. And occasionally if it got too much, maybe once or twice a year- there would be a slap from him. It was horrible, but not constant.

A couple of times he did have his hands around her neck and threats to kill were also always rife.

But not daily beatings with bruises.

Not that I'm excusing it, in any way whatsoever. Just trying to paint the picture.

Difficult to say the least. Relationships with father is also difficult.

My friend is like this- her partner is very successful and she now works one day per week. Otherwise she runs, tennis lessons, art classes, visiting her elderly grandparents
whom she adores. Partner seems happy to keep her/indulge her and my friend is very fulfilled with her hobbies. Doesn’t have children and doesn’t plan to, her partner has children from his previous marriage.

It’s easy to judge but if one partner has a significant income/enjoys the buzz of working and the other doesn’t enjoy working/earns an average salary at full
time (friend is on 35K a year if full time) then why not? Nobody on their death bed thinks ‘I’m glad I worked full time so nobody would judge me as a gold digger’ rather than ‘I’m glad I enjoyed tennis in the sun and had time to be with my family and friends’

I think the issue is your mum made choices based on her situation at the time - and I would probably have done the same. Is their cultural thing at play here? Did he see it very much as a 'family business' and she should work for peanuts and not be appreciated because it was 'family income' ?

However your mother needs to butt out if it with regards to you- how you run your affairs is your business- or are you actually seeing her point and seeking permission on here to not do much if married to a wealthy guy- ?

@klangr why doesn't she divorce him? If she's married she should do just fine

My parents always loved me, just not each other.

They weren't bad parents to me, aside from their issues. But it wasn't a stable environment to grow up in. Also because they'd always talk of divorce and my mum being chucked on the street with nothing. I used to worry a lot about everyone and everything.

I was a very very well behaved child. No trouble. Always doing the right thing, always trying to be perfect. I grew up into a naughty rebellious teenager and it took a long time for me to calm down and get serious about my life goals.

I suffer from very low self esteem. Depression and anxiety.

In terms of my life partner etc and whether I've chosen a similar man- I don't think so. My H is not loud or shouty or violent. But he is passive aggressive and moody instead. We have small children and I work full time. I'm under a lot of pressure and I often feel quite alone in that. I do the majority of everything- work and kids.

I'm better off than my mum, by a long way. But I do wish I had a more equal partner and that he looked out for me a bit more. He's selfish really and thinks primarily of himself.

I post on here sometimes. My situation isn't ideal but I don't think it's abusive.

The phrase that “women can have it all” really should be “women can have it all to do”

Running a house with children can be a full time job, more so if the husband never gives any help.

Marriages that work where the woman has a job and children, only work if the husband or partner fully pulls his weight, and helps in the house, shares childcare and the mental load.

A very common complaint on MN is from a working woman whose partner is not pulling his weight in the relationship. This can only breed resentment.

Unpaid work like housework, childcare etc is vastly undervalued because it is generally women’s work.

I am in a similar position and now I’m divorcing it’s “all his money, and “I never contributed”.

It’s dangerous for a women not to work, no financial independence, no pension etc.

And it’s a problem if they do work, as they end up doing the lion share of everything else.

Your mum should read Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez.

I think your mum had contributed enough to the marriage/business to deserve the benefits.

on the other hand she should have left your sorry-ass father a long time ago.

Totally agree with you.

Why should she be married to a rich man and have to work like a dog in the business ( without getting a penny ) and also work like a dog at home, with no recognition.

They never had joint bank accounts or anything like that. He gave her a measly allowance every week that didn't cover anything. My mum had part time jobs in some capacity most of the time to buy clothes for herself or presents for us.

She was not living the high life on his salary. When she'd play tennis, or see friends for coffee- she'd scrimped and saved to make that happen.

He's never even bought her a Christmas or birthday present.

In any case, nowadays most women are also doubly fucked. I'm one of them. Work full time, but still the dickhead responsible for laundry and all house / child related tasks.

@klangr I’m sorry for you if you have ended up being one of the double fucked women who work full time in and out the house with a lazy dickhead partner.

i hope you will forgive me if I derail the thread for a moment.

@anywherehollie , @mondaytosunday and @GiraffeInABath (friend), and any others, I don’t know if this might be applicable to you, maybe not. If not, my apologies.

I also was at STAHW and then STAHM. My husband was in the military (lots of moving and time away). He earntgood money and didn’t want me to work as I coulnt pursue a career (because of constant moves). He wanted me to ‘have time to enjoy myself’ and even said that my job of raising our Dd (because he was away so much) was more important than anything that he did in his job.

I was the perfect wife. I did everything. I did all the house chores, cooking, childcare, mental load from organising mortgages, insurances and house moves to putting the bins out. I was also a frugal wife, I wasn’t one for shopping, lunches, designer bags, tennis lessons. My hobbies were low cost and productive - DIY/decorating, gardening, making curtains.

Over the years this unpaid ‘woman’s work’ became less valued while his job became more important. Over the years I became less equal in the marriage. Over the years he became more autocratic and finally a bully.

I am divorcing now and because it’s a long marriage and children grown up it’s 50/50. My name was on the house and mortgage, and we have (some)joint accounts. I also get to share his military pension. He is incandescent with rage that he has to share his money. Over the years he has also taken control of finances and now has accounts and a business in his name only, that he will not divulge.

So this is my advice to those of you who are STAHM for whatever reasons, things change over time. Get married, own things jointly, have mostly joint accounts, know where all the money is, ask to have equal ‘spending money’ (and separate accounts for that). But most important of all, pay in to your own private pension.

Sorry for the derail, but I’m speaking from experience. As they say: Thankyou for coming to my TED Talk.