To be embarrassed by our politicians?

[domineastronomy]

What an absolute shambles in the Commons this evening.
Voting on Gaza was secondary to pathetic game playing and point scoring.

Of course it does.

Process is that the SNP get their motion.. Starmer urged the speaker to drop standard process. It’s not that hard to get

Honestly you’ll be pro Starmer whatever even when overriding process to save his arse is in your face so your post doesn’t surprise me

There was nothing to stop Hoyle holding a meeting with all leaders to talk about safety given that was apparently the issue

He claimed he wanted to keep all MPs safe, ok then get then get all leaders together beforehand

Starmer prompted this and urged for what he wanted because of a rebellion in his party

Hoyle wants to stay and is regretting his actions due to backlash

Last night 33 now 59.

Politicians "urge" stuff all the time, it's hardly unusual and wouldn't usually be enough to change anything.

And contrary to what you might think, I'm no fan of Starmer. I think he has been weak on the Gaza issue and I don't think he is a great leader. I just haven't seen any evidence to support the view that undue pressure from him caused Lindsay Hoyle to act impartially. And the only people that I've seen making that argument - including yourself and other posters on this thread - are the people who generally take any opportunity that they can to have a pop at Labour.

If there is real evidence, I am happy to change my view. You don't appear to have any though.

The whole vote was pointless. Anyway.

SNP raising a motion over a ceasefire in Gaza, FGS and that affects the UK how exactly.

We have 0 input in Gaza. They should be raising motions over the NHS or other UK based problems. It doesn’t matter what we call for, it’s not going to have any impact on what happens in Gaza.

Israel didn’t even listen to the UN.

Give over

Luckily I don’t have to convince you of anything Why bother when you’re stuck with that much pro Labour allegiance

It makes no odds to how many votes of no confidence are coming in for Hoyle whether you will budge or not.

Parliament runs on a lot of conventions.

If people didn't allow these conventions and agree to them life gets more difficult.

If someone decides to break a convention then that is going to have consequences.

So probably best to look at where and how the convention has been broken rather than look at the consequences of that.

When you run out of valid arguments, your tactic seems to be to resort to saying that I'll never be convinced because of my "pro-labour allegiance". I guess that's all that you've got to offer.

If you actually knew me, you would know that I don't have any pro Labour allegiance. Contrary to what you might think, challenging right wing politicking doesn't make me a loyal Labour Party flag waver. Yes, I'm left leaning, but I've voted variously on the past for the greens, the lib dems and Labour. I will probably vote Labour in the next election because that is the best chance of unseating my shit Tory MP, but is is a vote against the Tories rather than for Labour. I'm not a Labour Party member and wouldn't regard myself even as a supporter at present... I'm disappointed in their stance on a number of issues and will only vote for them as the best of a bad bunch.

The reality is that I have regarded myself as politically homeless for some years, but carry on stereotyping me if you wish. It doesn't make your arguments any stronger.

You have your view and can keep it, what does it matter? You think Starmer did nothing wrong.

But no I don’t want speakers urged by leaders to change process and folding

You sound keen but not for me.

If it was safety for all MPs then all leaders could have met to decide what to do. Not just Starmer urging for his outcome to save himself from a rebellion.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves
Politicians "urge" stuff all the time, it's hardly unusual and wouldn't usually be enough to change anything.

Starmer's personal visit was unusual -

Sir Keir went to see the Speaker personally to make his case.

The visit was unusual. Normally matters of Commons business and votes are left to the whips, the traditional connecting point between a political party and the parliamentary authorities.

I said I've seen no evidence that Starmer did anything wrong. Since you're such an advocate of sticking to due process, I'm sure you'll agree that we should work on the basis that people are innocent until proven guilty.

If we see any evidence that suggests that Starmer bullied Hoyle into this decision, or otherwise exerted an unreasonable degree of pressure on him, then I will condemn Starmer for doing that and Hoyle for caving in.

All you've got at the moment is Starmer having "urged" for allowing the broadest possible debate.

And yes, I agree with you that calling a meeting with all of the party leaders to discuss safety concerns would have been a sensible thing to do. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I'm sure Hoyle now recognises that he misjudged the strength of reaction from the Tories and the SNP. He has apologised for this. None of this makes him guilty of deliberately favouring Labour.

Anyway, we are not going to agree so there is little point in going round and round in circles about it. We can agree to disagree.

Lindsay Hoyle issues an apology to the SNP and to the House

'I made a judgement call that didn't end up in the position where I expected it to. I regret it.

'I apologise to the SNP and I apologise to the House. I made a mistake. We do make mistakes. I own up to mine'

He says threats to MPs are 'absolutely frightening'

'I have a duty of care that I will carry out to protect people. It is the protection that led me to make a wrong decision. But what I do not apologise is the risk that is being put on all members. I do not want anything to happen again.'

Thanks for this

Maybe useful for @MrsBennetsPoorNerves

None of that is evidence that Starmer forced Hoyle into anything

Remember the Conservative Government lied to the Queen and unlawfully prorogued Parliament for political advantage,

OK. It was unusual. That alone doesn't signify anything untoward. It's entirely possible that Starmer wanted to raise specific concerns around MP safety.

I hope that either Starmer or Hoyle choose to release more information about what was discussed.

The reality is, even if Starmer did attempt to pressure Hoyle - which is far from proven - it wouldn't necessarily be the case that such pressure is what swayed Hoyle's decision. We just don't know.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves
It's entirely possible that Starmer wanted to raise specific concerns around MP safety.

Although Starmer doesn't appear to have raised this concern in his interview this morning.

Fair enough, I didn't see that interview. But still, we don't seem to have much information about what was actually discussed, and I am not going to make assumptions in either direction.

I did see Hoyle stating very clearly that he was motivated by concerns about MP safety, and I believe him. I think he perhaps made an error of judgement in how he handled those concerns, but I believe that it was a genuine error of judgement and not a failure of impartiality.

I think Hoyle is a decent man who actually takes the impartiality of his role very seriously. I think he miscalculated on this occasion but I do think he was simply trying to do what he believed was best, with the safety and security of MPs as a high priority. Should he lose his job for that error of judgement? Personally I don't think so, but if he has lost the confidence of much of the house, then he might have to go.

Whatever happens to Hoyle, it doesn't absolve the rest of them - from all parties - from their crass attempts to make political capital out of the most horrendous human suffering.

When did the Tories start being bothered about parliamentary process? They’ve been stamping all over it for the last 14 years. Not to mention the times that they’ve actually broken parliamentary rules not just precedent.

Honestly the Tories taking a stand on parliamentary precedent is the only thing that might be remotely funny about this whole fiasco.