Tax system

[Cupcakes2024]

Watching some of Jamie dimon from JP Morgan and chase bank, speech's and one point he advocated is rather than tax the rich to raise taxes is instead its better to have a balanced tax system , basically is Jamie correct ?

I think a bit more personal responsibility would likely save the NHS billions.

Here’s how I’d do it: complete check ups at 40, 45, 50 etc. If you show that you are taking care of your health, 1p off income tax, or maybe some kind of big rebate. It’d still be a net win for the government because typical drugs/medication/procedures for an unhealthy individual costs the NHS thousands and thousands a year.

I agree with all of this, absolutely. We’re heading towards a two tier society.

You will only get one answer to this question. That anyone who earns or has more than the person answering the question should pay more tax. No one sincerely believes they should pay more tax. They may give lip service but they don’t believe it, otherwise they would pay more. No one is stopping them. Cue those making excuses about how they want to pay more but they won’t do it voluntarily because x, y, z.

Moral of the story is that it’s easy to spend other people’s money. Or steal is as is the case with the corruption and wastage associated with how taxed money is spent.

Fair points on that, thankfully at the moment its different perspectives on the thread.

Is this satire? Gordon Brown basically created an entrenched system of welfare dependence. Below market rate wages and everyone paying high tax and getting tax credit.

This is the biggest reason why this country has lower productivity and the economy is stagnant today. Because employers have not had to pay market rate wages since the time of nu Labour and had no incentive to invest in productivity.

@HFJ and @dreamingofsun I think inheritance tax is less of an issue as people being gifted significant sums (usually to avoid inheritance tax and on the back of large house price increases). This usually is the difference now if people can get on housing ladder or not (and then more disposable income as not tied up in big mortgages).

In fairness to Gordon Brown (was not a massive fan), he was undoubtedly a vey hard worker and could not envisage people would work on 16 hours and claim benefits rather then earn the same and work full time. Im from a working class family (steel industry) and my parents and grandparents generation would never have countenanced that as an option either.

(In fairness the position is shortsighted because you are impacting income prospects, pensions and promotions, but also when children are over 18 people get absolutely clobbered because they lose a large amount of these benefits and have limited career options).

You seem to forget that they once had mortgages and kids. You too will one day be in the same position. Life is cyclical for everyone.

That's basically the same system in many central European countries like Denmark, Austria, Germany, Netherlands etc. A relatively high tax rate that starts at comparatively low salaries. The 50% tax rate starts at a much lower income level than the UK or USA. So technically, they are not really taxing the rich but just average middle class people. Those on low six figures (good but far from millionaire status) effectively only take home 50% of what they earn.

Obviously there are some complaints across the board because people still do the same amount of work and are taxed much more heavily compared to other countries. But the upside is that state infrastructure works well, the health system is robust and there is very little crime because of generous welfare programs. Paid maternity leave is much longer, up to 1-2 years. Quality of life and happiness is higher on the whole.

Pensioners pay tax on their pension income at the same rate as working people.

A tax system based on disposable income would penalise the frugal. Me with my bike and camping holiday would pay more tax than someone on exactly the same income who drives a jag and holidays in Dubai. Doesn't sound fair to me.

The only fair thing you can say about Gordon Brown was that the guy is an idiot. He made not one good economic decision. He systemically killed productivity in this country, sold our gold reserves and presided over the financial crash (yes it was global, but banks are regulated nationally). The guy summed up Labour nicely, incompetent and moronic. Of course the Tories have continued with his legacy, also adding corruption to the mix.

You seem to forget that they once had mortgages and kids. You too will one day be in the same position. Life is cyclical for everyone.

Todays youth will be retiring later, receiving state pension later & don't have access to generous private schemes (most have closed) & house prices are unlikely to see the same level of growth so it is different now despite others not wanting to see it.

And I don't think the NHS will exist in its current model, it's mot sustainable. Free prescription at 60 will move out for one.

That's basically the same system in many central European countries like Denmark, Austria, Germany, Netherlands etc. A relatively high tax rate that starts at comparatively low salaries. The 50% tax rate starts at a much lower income level than the UK or USA. So technically, they are not really taxing the rich but just average middle class people. Those on low six figures (good but far from millionaire status) effectively only take home 50% of what they earn.

Obviously there are some complaints across the board because people still do the same amount of work and are taxed much more heavily compared to other countries. But the upside is that state infrastructure works well, the health system is robust and there is very little crime because of generous welfare programs. Paid maternity leave is much longer, up to 1-2 years. Quality of life and happiness is higher on the whole.

But those countries don't have the same inequality as the UK & look at social mobility here. The housing market and the fact it's so entwined with the economy has created huge issues.

"Wealth in Great Britain is even more unequally divided than income. In 2020, the ONS calculated that the richest 10% of households hold 43% of all wealth. The poorest 50%, by contrast, own just 9%"

"By 2023, the richest 50 families in the UK held more wealth than half of the UK population, comprising 33.5 million people"

Well if you introduced a more "balanced" taxation system now the result would be that huge numbers would be plunged into poverty. Fair enough if wages were decent but with the level of wages as they are now if you taxed everyone at 50% many would not be able to even pay for the basic staples of living.

50% of a £25,000 wage doesn't exactly give you a good life. No way of buying a home, unlikely to be able to afford children. You need to sort out the gross inequalities in this country before you can even consider this as a taxation option.

The top centiles are taxed here, it’s high as it is

However I don’t think the lower and middle can stump up more as they are too stretched

Maybe a tax where it doesn’t make people just leave, not sure what that is

Otherwise we need to be tax competitive, look at ROI who did very well out of lower CT. Counterintuitive but we aren’t great as an electorate at thinking beyond plonking on higher taxes

You need to sort out the gross inequalities in this country before you can even consider this as a taxation option.

exactly

I think the problem is we have too many people economically inactive . We'll never have good public services when too many people take but don't contribute.
I get a bit fed up constantly hearing the cry for the ' rich ' to pay more , they are doing their bit , what about sorting out those who contribute nothing .

I think the problem is we have too many people economically inactive . We'll never have good public services when too many people take but don't contribute.

Much of the increase is down to the ‘silver exodus’ many who are in ill health. What do you propose?

I get a bit fed up constantly hearing the cry for the ' rich ' to pay more , they are doing their bit

Not all

“Researchers from Warwick University and the London School of Economics (LSE) analysed anonymised HMRC tax returns of higher earners and found that the average person with £10m in total remuneration had an effective tax rate of just 21 per cent – less than someone on median earnings of £30,000.”

“And a tenth of people receiving more than £1m paid a lower rate than someone earning just £15,000.”

sorry but how can you blame pensioners for being economically inactive when there are so many people who work 16 hours a week so they can maximise their benefits? Ive worked 30+ hours a week for 40 years paying lots of tax .....please dont slate me compared to someone who works 16 and gets benefit top ups.

We need equality as to tax rates on ALL types of income. It's crazy that workers pay more tax than a non worker on the same income. We need to scrap the different types of income, i.e. earned versus unearned etc.

We also need to scrap the extra tax allowances for interest and dividends, i.e. a worker starts paying tax/nic on wages over £12.5k, yet someone with income comprising a few thousand of interest/dividends can have an income of up to around £18.5k before paying any tax, and never pays any nic.

There's no logic at all why, say, a pensioner with income of £18.5k comprising say £12k pension and £8.5k interest/dividends pays no tax nor NIC, yet a worker on £18.5k of wages, pays around £2k of that in tax/NIC.

Same with capital gains tax, scrap the 10/20/28% rates and impose it at the same 20/40% as income is taxed.

We don't need to "hit" the richest with special taxes etc., we can just rationalise rates and bands etc so that some of the anomalies that benefit "richer" people (even at low income levels) are made much fairer.

Indeed he was an idiot. He also ruined pension schemes with his tax grab. And let's not forget his cunning plan to help business by bringing in a zero percent corporation tax rate for small businesses, and then being surprised when lots of sole traders converted to limited companies to benefit from it - his paymaster general said in Parliament (as per Hansard) that she didn't think sole traders would incorporate "just to save tax" - they were clueless!! And if that's not bad enough, how about the overly generous tax credits where it encouraged people to reduce working hours and encouraged the feckless to start "pretend" businesses to pretend to work enough hours to claim full tax credits whilst not actually earning anything! He was a massive liability. He had no idea at all about human nature,

Bloody hell. People that have zero clue on human behaviour should not be deciding tax laws

I agree. I know people on both sides of the rich/poor pensioner fence. The homeowner pensioners are ok, especially those who were on final salary pensions, the non-homeowners purely on state pension and renting am be much poorer and some have no inheritance to leave.