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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think controlling partners don't always realise...

75 replies

Confused1012024 · 18/02/2024 01:04

Name change for this one.

Do you think that partners who are controlling do so internationally, or do they just genuinely belive that their way is the only right way of doing things and if you do it differently you are wrong/stupid?

Their withdrawal of affection isn't an intentional punishment, just a natural consequence of not doing things how they like it done.

I'm sure we all have things that annoy us that our partners do but at what point does the want to get them to do it right/ their way become controlling?

I hope that makes sense, I'm a bit confused at the moment...

OP posts:
Ouchmyarse · 18/02/2024 09:30

I had a short lived relationship once where he tried to be controlling.

He started a row once when I had been out with friends. I just left his house.

I didn’t hear a thing from him for a week. Good riddance, I thought.

On the 7th day, he turned up at my house, raging that he had been ignoring me for a week and that I didn’t care. He said his last girlfriends would have been begging, apologising and sobbing.

My dad was at home at the time. We both looked at each other and laughed. Then my dad told him if he ever contacted me again, he’d have him and his police mates to deal with.

Anyway, I was young and it really made me think why other women would have been crying and begging after being ignored by a dickhead who got angry because they had spent an evening with friends.

HeyHoTheWindAndTheRain · 18/02/2024 09:32

BertieBotts · 18/02/2024 09:09

There is actually some good research on abuse, (which includes controlling behaviour) and the root of it is that the abuser, whether we are talking a romantic relationship or an employer or a parent or a child, believes themselves to be entitled to servitude from the victim.

A good analogy is this. A great many people have pet dogs. They love their dog and care for it. They take it to the vet to keep it healthy. They provide it with food, shelter, exercise and companionship.

They might think "I'm a good dog owner, I would never hit my dog!" "I can't stand those awful dog owners who leave their dogs outsode overnight." They consider the dog a member of their family. They choose the food that the dog prefers, they buy a bed that it finds comfortable. They DO, genuinely, love their dog.

But at the same time, it's a dog. When they have visitors who don't like dogs, they shut it in another room so that it doesn't bother them. When they go on holiday, they might put it into kennels or with a family member. When it has to stay overnight at the vets, it stays in a small cage. When they go out for a restaurant meal, the dog gets its own ordinary kibble or tinned food. They expect it to obey commands. They keep it on a lead in public places. There are certain foods and rooms in the house which are off-limits. They do all of these things and they are still a good dog owner. These decisions are totally appropriate because a dog is not a human.

The abusive/controlling person thinks much the same way about their romantic partner. They love them, they appreciate them, they take good care of them - so they think. (I'll switch to he for abuser, she for victim now because they is too confusing)

But if the victim starts to get out of line, it's totally appropriate to pull her back into line somehow. That might be subtle like letting her know that she has upset him, or hurt his feelings. Subtle manipulation to get her to feel she has to "make it up" to him. If she is demanding too much then she has to be brought back down to her proper place. She is not really an equal. She is beneath him, her role is to adore and serve him and she can only expect certain things from him. When she starts to expect too much, he needs to let her know.

The abuser might not be consciously aware that he is placing her in this role. Indeed, in male violence/control towards women it is generally a kind of unconscious view about how all men and all women relate, with women being on a lesser rung - they often have a hierarchical view of how men relate to each other, too, with more physically domineering, or otherwise powerful men higher on the ladder, but women are right at the bottom with lesser men. It just seems so obvious and innate to them that they probably wouldn't articulate it - but you'll notice little signs like they never look to women for their opinion/don't take their opinion seriously on serious matters. Jokes that play down women's intelligence. In his mind it's "just the way things are" and movements like feminism are unfair because this is women wanting to climb the power ladder without the proper merit. They will sometimes respect certain women who do play to the rules of what they see as the male power game, but the majority are down there at the bottom, and women (especially "their" woman) refusing to play to the rules of that game and accept their position are being uppity and entitled.

In fact, it is the abuser who is entitled. It is very difficult to change this because in order to change this they have to overhaul their entire view of how society works and how people interact and it is not a comfortable thing to give up their relatively high position on that ladder. Abusers who do perpetrator programmes to learn how to be not-abusive commonly have the question "But if I'm not allowed to hit my wife, how do I get her to do what I want?" They do not fundamentally grasp that they do not have that right - that their wife has the right to choose what she wants to do. That a partnership is about communication but each person equally in control.

So in terms of whether they know what they are doing and choose it - yes and no. They are choosing it in the way that you would choose to correct an unwanted behaviour from your dog (or your child, though we recognise a child is learning). They are not consciously choosing what they see as their rightful position in the relationship. But for me once I understood this I could not be in the relationship any more, because I understood that I was not an equal in his eyes and would never be. He was seeing something totally different to what I was seeing and we would never be on the same page.

This is a really excellent post @BertieBotts Flowers

Toblerbone · 18/02/2024 09:33

I don't think it matters if they know or not. I can't control how they feel about their own behaviour. But I can control my reaction - which would be that I wouldn't put up with it.

Advice400 · 18/02/2024 09:33

@peanutbutterkid

Agree with this...
A lot of controlling people don't realise they are super intolerant. They just think the other person is hopeless so needs controlling in order to not do everything wrong

I work with someone like this. They also change their mind regularly so it's hard to meet their expectations. I was the messenger once on something they said last year was OK. They've decided this year it isn't and spent an hour on the phone including shouting. It goes over my head - their problem! But, it's noticeable they took that incident as me "not being reliable" and have since belittled me in meetings, had a go at every opportunity and gaslit me.

I had a big matter to raise with them last week. I had to make myself do it because I was worried about the backlash. Anyway, I did it because it was the right thing to do. Got an instant reply "No" followed by a change ten minutes later to the document I was referring to "I changed my mind".

It must be a drag being him and living such a stressful life!

Taylorwonthesuperbowl · 18/02/2024 09:42

I’m also trying to figure this out. I’m recently divorced and have had some support from Women’s Aid who have said my ex is emotionally abusive and controlling. He would use the silent treatment, sulk, blame shifting etc. I think for him it is a combination of entitlement and never being able to accept that he is wrong about anything. I don’t think he consciously thinks about it though. It makes it hard to come to terms with.

BlueBrush · 18/02/2024 09:45

I've said to him that I feel he is controlling sometimes and he totally denied it and said he can't help how he feels and it would be fake of him to act totally normal and be affectionate if he is annoyed at me.

He can't help how he feels but he can (and should) manage how he acts on those feelings.

It's hard to tell without more detail but this sounds like you've done something, he felt annoyed about it, and you've tried to encourage affection (apologised? made a conciliatory gesture? offered an olive branch?) - and he's not accepting that. That doesn't sound very healthy. It sounds like he's indulging his feelings of annoyance, when he should be trying to work through them.

Pickles2023 · 18/02/2024 09:55

I can be a bit controlling i think...

Its from a place of fear and worry. I Don't want anything bad to happen to my DH and children, he is unintentionally not always the most responsible or sensible, so feel i have to overcompensate where he lacks, whack a load of anxiety in the mix and i can go to far.

I don't withold affection or anything like that, but i can get burnout and snappy, and i can't understand why he can't understand my perspective 😭😂

I have to step back in a quiet space and reflect. Try and see what he is feeling, if i am overreacting and being too much, take a breather. Then talk it through and compromise.

I used to be a bit of a toxic nightmare 10 years ago, so i do have to keep myself in check a lot not to let my emotions/fears override morality and reality.

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 18/02/2024 09:56

I don’t think they know they’re controlling. They just know, with total conviction, that they’re ‘right’ and you’re not only wrong, but stupid. That’s the mindset you’re dealing with. You can lose years of good living with these time bandits.

Wolfiefan · 18/02/2024 09:59

Buy you’ve told him so he does know. He is fully aware. And yes an adult should be able to manage their own emotions without taking them out on others. (Bet he’s not like this at work.)
Plus this behaviour isn’t acceptable. So don’t accept it.

KarenMaddox · 18/02/2024 09:59

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

pictoosh · 18/02/2024 10:05

They genuinely believe they are right and justified in the moment. Then, because their egos are very fragile, they feel wounded and insulted when someone stands up to them, even by simply disagreeing.
They think that person (you?) is stupid, yes. Absolutely. You are asking to be treated with contempt.

They may calm down later and reflect differently...or they may wait for you to apologise for upsetting them. Either way, it will happen again and again and again.

There's nothing you can say or do to change someone's fundamental personality and/or mindset.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/02/2024 10:57

@BertieBotts Amazing post, thank you.

TheWildEyeBoyfromafreecloud · 18/02/2024 11:26

@BertieBotts excellent post

Spirallingdownwards · 18/02/2024 11:33

You have told him you feel he is. He has said he isn't and you have to accept that. So as well as controlling you he is now gaslighting you too.

LiteKim · 18/02/2024 11:55

So is ‘Grey rocking’ silent treatment?

Begsthequestion · 18/02/2024 12:03

BertieBotts · 18/02/2024 09:09

There is actually some good research on abuse, (which includes controlling behaviour) and the root of it is that the abuser, whether we are talking a romantic relationship or an employer or a parent or a child, believes themselves to be entitled to servitude from the victim.

A good analogy is this. A great many people have pet dogs. They love their dog and care for it. They take it to the vet to keep it healthy. They provide it with food, shelter, exercise and companionship.

They might think "I'm a good dog owner, I would never hit my dog!" "I can't stand those awful dog owners who leave their dogs outsode overnight." They consider the dog a member of their family. They choose the food that the dog prefers, they buy a bed that it finds comfortable. They DO, genuinely, love their dog.

But at the same time, it's a dog. When they have visitors who don't like dogs, they shut it in another room so that it doesn't bother them. When they go on holiday, they might put it into kennels or with a family member. When it has to stay overnight at the vets, it stays in a small cage. When they go out for a restaurant meal, the dog gets its own ordinary kibble or tinned food. They expect it to obey commands. They keep it on a lead in public places. There are certain foods and rooms in the house which are off-limits. They do all of these things and they are still a good dog owner. These decisions are totally appropriate because a dog is not a human.

The abusive/controlling person thinks much the same way about their romantic partner. They love them, they appreciate them, they take good care of them - so they think. (I'll switch to he for abuser, she for victim now because they is too confusing)

But if the victim starts to get out of line, it's totally appropriate to pull her back into line somehow. That might be subtle like letting her know that she has upset him, or hurt his feelings. Subtle manipulation to get her to feel she has to "make it up" to him. If she is demanding too much then she has to be brought back down to her proper place. She is not really an equal. She is beneath him, her role is to adore and serve him and she can only expect certain things from him. When she starts to expect too much, he needs to let her know.

The abuser might not be consciously aware that he is placing her in this role. Indeed, in male violence/control towards women it is generally a kind of unconscious view about how all men and all women relate, with women being on a lesser rung - they often have a hierarchical view of how men relate to each other, too, with more physically domineering, or otherwise powerful men higher on the ladder, but women are right at the bottom with lesser men. It just seems so obvious and innate to them that they probably wouldn't articulate it - but you'll notice little signs like they never look to women for their opinion/don't take their opinion seriously on serious matters. Jokes that play down women's intelligence. In his mind it's "just the way things are" and movements like feminism are unfair because this is women wanting to climb the power ladder without the proper merit. They will sometimes respect certain women who do play to the rules of what they see as the male power game, but the majority are down there at the bottom, and women (especially "their" woman) refusing to play to the rules of that game and accept their position are being uppity and entitled.

In fact, it is the abuser who is entitled. It is very difficult to change this because in order to change this they have to overhaul their entire view of how society works and how people interact and it is not a comfortable thing to give up their relatively high position on that ladder. Abusers who do perpetrator programmes to learn how to be not-abusive commonly have the question "But if I'm not allowed to hit my wife, how do I get her to do what I want?" They do not fundamentally grasp that they do not have that right - that their wife has the right to choose what she wants to do. That a partnership is about communication but each person equally in control.

So in terms of whether they know what they are doing and choose it - yes and no. They are choosing it in the way that you would choose to correct an unwanted behaviour from your dog (or your child, though we recognise a child is learning). They are not consciously choosing what they see as their rightful position in the relationship. But for me once I understood this I could not be in the relationship any more, because I understood that I was not an equal in his eyes and would never be. He was seeing something totally different to what I was seeing and we would never be on the same page.

This is a great post and I'm quoting it so more people might see it.

It really drives home the fact that you yourself can't change a partner who is like this. They simply do not see you as an equal. This is especially true of men who abuse. Their belief in your inequality and their superiority/entitlement allows them to be ok with treating you in ways that they themselves would not want to be treated.

You can't reason with them to be fair, because in their minds, it is fair. I suspect it's why even meticulously researched and well designed anti-abuse perpetrator courses usually fail. It's the abuser's whole world view that makes their behaviour justified in their own minds, and changing that means climbing down from the idea that they are superior to half the world's population just because of how they were born. And their ego can't handle that.

Since we live in a world rife with inequality, full of male violence and female victims, where men and women are regularly held to different standards, and they have male friends who have the same ideas, and were perhaps raised by a father who is the same - their own twisted beliefs can be regularly reaffirmed whenever they choose, and the tiny voices of partners, doctors, judges etc. telling them otherwise are easily drowned out before they have any effect. So why bother with the painful, difficult process of change, when they can in reality just move on, lie, call their last victim crazy, and carry on, ego fully intact.

milkingtime · 18/02/2024 12:04

Ny ex was controlling but it was never about how things were done. More about keeping my emotions in check ( not allowed to complain about how he was treating me)

but I’m interested in the way criticising men for not doing household chores correctly is controlling- what if they’re doing it badly on purpose? (my ex did this) - for example, eventually doing a quick shop but leaving the food on the kitchen table and not putting it in fridge or freezer.

a colleague mentioned how his wife didn’t like a t shirt he was wearing and suggested he wore another one? ( he was wearing the t shirt in question at the time- it was old, worn and awful in the first place…she had a point!)

Begsthequestion · 18/02/2024 12:12

LiteKim · 18/02/2024 11:55

So is ‘Grey rocking’ silent treatment?

No. Silent treatment is a way of communicating your unhappiness with someone in a way you hope hurts their feelings, until you have had enough of hurting them. It's a punishment.

Grey rocking is way to avoid communicating your unhappiness because you know from past experience it will lead to your greater unhappiness, rather than a positive resolution.

Universalsnail · 18/02/2024 12:16

I don't believe the controlling or even abusive partners nessiccarily always understand they are abusive, or intend to be abusive. I do think many people are self interested and emotionally immature. Many abusers do know they are abusing though. Impossible to call unless you know someone very well.

I don't think their intention or understanding of the situation though makes any difference to the impact on the person being controlled or abused though and if you are trying to justify someone's controlling behaviour as a reason to stay with them that's not a good idea.

tutttutt · 18/02/2024 12:20

I don't think there is a single answer. Some controlling people intentionally and knowingly are controlling. Others are well meaning and think they know best. Others have conditions like autism or anxiety which drives them to not be able to cope with anyone else making decisions. It's complicated. But no. They are not all toxic arseholes with work and therapy some can stop being controlling as it was never about domination

orangeleopard · 18/02/2024 12:22

My ex was abusive and controlling, and I suspect him to be a narcissist or at the very least have picked up on narcissistic traits from growing up with his mum who has NPD. I go back and forth debating if he was aware with what he was doing, or if he done it unknowingly as a result of his drug use, mental health issues and upbringing. I think was solidified the fact that he knew what he was doing was when he was abusive and controlling and I’d end up breaking down in front of him because of it and he showed no emotion, no remorse and would continue with his behaviour. I think if you don’t know you’re doing something and you get called out and see someone affected because of that behaviour, you would actively try and change.

GreyCarpet · 18/02/2024 12:24

Herdinggoats · 18/02/2024 08:55

He’s denied being controlling. Controlling people never admit it. If he is behaving in a particular way expecting you to change your what you are doing then it is controlling.

My exh was controlling.

He had a serious case of DARVO amd sought therapy after we split to deal with how my 'behaviour' had affected him.

The therapist made him realise that he had been very controlling of me and that there was nothing wrong with me or the way I was etc.

He apologised. Unreservedly.

He really didn't have a clue.

People are controlling either because they genuinely believe their way of doing things/thinking is right or because they are trying to protect themselves from being hurt in unhealthy ways. That doesn't excuse it, of course, but it does explain it.

GreyCarpet · 18/02/2024 12:33

but I’m interested in the way criticising men for not doing household chores correctly is controlling- what if they’re doing it badly on purpose? (my ex did this) - for example, eventually doing a quick shop but leaving the food on the kitchen table and not putting it in fridge or freezer.

I think it's more about situations where there is no single right way of doing it and a number of different ways that will achieve the same result.

In thise situations, one person may have a preferred way of doing it eg stacking the dishwasher but any reasonable way of doing it will achieve the same result.

In the situation you describe, the food will spoil if not put away properly so that isn't the same thing. But how things are organised in the fridge/freezer.might become an issue when that doesn't really matter (basic food hygiene aside).

Thisisnotarehearsal · 18/02/2024 12:41

BertieBotts · 18/02/2024 09:09

There is actually some good research on abuse, (which includes controlling behaviour) and the root of it is that the abuser, whether we are talking a romantic relationship or an employer or a parent or a child, believes themselves to be entitled to servitude from the victim.

A good analogy is this. A great many people have pet dogs. They love their dog and care for it. They take it to the vet to keep it healthy. They provide it with food, shelter, exercise and companionship.

They might think "I'm a good dog owner, I would never hit my dog!" "I can't stand those awful dog owners who leave their dogs outsode overnight." They consider the dog a member of their family. They choose the food that the dog prefers, they buy a bed that it finds comfortable. They DO, genuinely, love their dog.

But at the same time, it's a dog. When they have visitors who don't like dogs, they shut it in another room so that it doesn't bother them. When they go on holiday, they might put it into kennels or with a family member. When it has to stay overnight at the vets, it stays in a small cage. When they go out for a restaurant meal, the dog gets its own ordinary kibble or tinned food. They expect it to obey commands. They keep it on a lead in public places. There are certain foods and rooms in the house which are off-limits. They do all of these things and they are still a good dog owner. These decisions are totally appropriate because a dog is not a human.

The abusive/controlling person thinks much the same way about their romantic partner. They love them, they appreciate them, they take good care of them - so they think. (I'll switch to he for abuser, she for victim now because they is too confusing)

But if the victim starts to get out of line, it's totally appropriate to pull her back into line somehow. That might be subtle like letting her know that she has upset him, or hurt his feelings. Subtle manipulation to get her to feel she has to "make it up" to him. If she is demanding too much then she has to be brought back down to her proper place. She is not really an equal. She is beneath him, her role is to adore and serve him and she can only expect certain things from him. When she starts to expect too much, he needs to let her know.

The abuser might not be consciously aware that he is placing her in this role. Indeed, in male violence/control towards women it is generally a kind of unconscious view about how all men and all women relate, with women being on a lesser rung - they often have a hierarchical view of how men relate to each other, too, with more physically domineering, or otherwise powerful men higher on the ladder, but women are right at the bottom with lesser men. It just seems so obvious and innate to them that they probably wouldn't articulate it - but you'll notice little signs like they never look to women for their opinion/don't take their opinion seriously on serious matters. Jokes that play down women's intelligence. In his mind it's "just the way things are" and movements like feminism are unfair because this is women wanting to climb the power ladder without the proper merit. They will sometimes respect certain women who do play to the rules of what they see as the male power game, but the majority are down there at the bottom, and women (especially "their" woman) refusing to play to the rules of that game and accept their position are being uppity and entitled.

In fact, it is the abuser who is entitled. It is very difficult to change this because in order to change this they have to overhaul their entire view of how society works and how people interact and it is not a comfortable thing to give up their relatively high position on that ladder. Abusers who do perpetrator programmes to learn how to be not-abusive commonly have the question "But if I'm not allowed to hit my wife, how do I get her to do what I want?" They do not fundamentally grasp that they do not have that right - that their wife has the right to choose what she wants to do. That a partnership is about communication but each person equally in control.

So in terms of whether they know what they are doing and choose it - yes and no. They are choosing it in the way that you would choose to correct an unwanted behaviour from your dog (or your child, though we recognise a child is learning). They are not consciously choosing what they see as their rightful position in the relationship. But for me once I understood this I could not be in the relationship any more, because I understood that I was not an equal in his eyes and would never be. He was seeing something totally different to what I was seeing and we would never be on the same page.

I think this is a really great post.

However I would also say that controlling people do vary. They are individuals.

Yes there are plenty who are not fully aware of how they don't have the right to be completely in charge of another person and their behaviour stems from that.

On the other hand there are controllers who are very aware of what they are doing. Has anyone seen Bad Vegan? The partner in that was incredibly controlling and knew exactly what he was doing. I'm related to someone who is a controlling narcissist. She seeks to control everyone around her. She goes to massive efforts to try and orchestrate every aspect of the lives of everyone she knows. She's clever, manipulative, strategic and absolutely terrifying. Nothing she does is by accident. She enjoys the power trip.

Confused1012024 · 18/02/2024 12:45

Begsthequestion · 18/02/2024 12:12

No. Silent treatment is a way of communicating your unhappiness with someone in a way you hope hurts their feelings, until you have had enough of hurting them. It's a punishment.

Grey rocking is way to avoid communicating your unhappiness because you know from past experience it will lead to your greater unhappiness, rather than a positive resolution.

So how do you tell if it is grey rocking or being given silent treatment?

They may genuinely believe that they aren't talking to you because there is no point as you won't see their point of view, rather than giving you the silent treatment as a punishment for not seeing it.

OP posts: