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To think sacking this volunteer to a U.S charity was a complete over reaction (Title edited by MNHQ at request of OP)

151 replies

HermioneWeasley · 16/02/2024 12:03

The MS society in America has dismissed a 90 year old woman who has volunteered for them for SIXTY YEARS because she raised a question about pronoun use in emails.

they have doubled down on this decision issuing the following statement

“Recently, a volunteer, Fran Itkoff, was asked to step away from her role because of statements that were viewed as not aligning with our policy of inclusion.”

how can the people running these organisations be so out of touch with how people feel about these issues? They’re insane and frankly
cruel.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13088453/ms-society-slammed-firing-elderly-volunteer-pronouns.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top

MS Society defends axing volunteer, 90, who was confused over pronouns

Fran Itkoff was fired after 60 years of service with the National Multiple Scelorsis Society over the misunderstanding. The non profit has since been accused of 'ageism'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13088453/ms-society-slammed-firing-elderly-volunteer-pronouns.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top

OP posts:
OldCrone · 16/02/2024 19:00

AlisonDonut · 16/02/2024 18:57

I saw the video of her and her daughter discussing it. No daily mail or social media spin. She just literally asked what the pronouns were all about. No death or rape threats, no bomb threats, no misgendering, no doxxing, nothing like it. No nails in the sandwiches, no laxatives in the cake. Nothing else untoward.

If there had been, the charity would I am sure have told us.

The video is here.

https://wpde.com/amp/news/nation-world/ms-society-asked-90-year-old-volunteer-to-step-away-for-violating-inclusion-policy-fran-itkoff-national-multiple-sclerosis-society-libs-of-tiktok-interview-emma-hamilton-60-years-husband-died-inclusion-diversity-equity

She asked why people had put pronouns at the end of an email, and also wondered why it was only women who were putting these pronouns on their emails. She says that she just asked the question, but didn't understand the answer they gave, that it meant that they were 'inclusive'.

Missingmyusername · 16/02/2024 19:07

Dogfisher · 16/02/2024 13:17

She queried the stupid practice of putting pronouns in a bio. The USA has lost the plot and we are not far behind unless we stand up to this shit.

^This

Also saw a clip on Instagram where a newborn has been issued a certificate from
hospital stating sex ‘unknown’. The parents want to raise the child as gender neutral.

Whether this was false news, I’ve no idea. I can see it happening though.

Emotionalsupportviper · 16/02/2024 19:09

10ThousandSpoons · 16/02/2024 12:38

Yes I read the whole thing and can't see what it is she has said to cause it.

A you tuber has given more details. Apparently the woman asked "What are these? Why are they putting pronouns in the e-mails?" (or words to that effect.

It seemed more an elderly person confused by something that has only started happening recently rather than anything else.

MS Society Ousts 90 Year-Old Volunteer Over Pronouns 😡

A 90 year old woman was removed from her volunteer position with the MS Society because she asked what pronouns are after seeing them in letter corresponden...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_0zhbazUMQ

AGoingConcern · 16/02/2024 19:10

AlisonDonut · 16/02/2024 18:57

I saw the video of her and her daughter discussing it. No daily mail or social media spin. She just literally asked what the pronouns were all about. No death or rape threats, no bomb threats, no misgendering, no doxxing, nothing like it. No nails in the sandwiches, no laxatives in the cake. Nothing else untoward.

If there had been, the charity would I am sure have told us.

Or maybe the MS Society didn't comment because they rightly think that this shouldn't be adjudicated by a mass poll spurred on by random people with an agenda entirely unrelated to the mission of the organization. Or maybe they didn't think releasing detailed criticism of a volunteer publicly was appropriate.

But sure. Everyone should withhold their donations until the society bends to your wishes. Screw all those people with MS that the society would help with that money, they aren't really important here.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 16/02/2024 19:12

GrannyRose15 · 16/02/2024 18:57

So anyone who doesn’t agree with the policy should refuse to donate. Sooner or later they will get the message.

Well no, not in our case, because donations are about 0.2% of the annual budget so there is no avenue for objectors to actually assert any financial pressure on the org in that sense. The contract is compelled by law, LA and NHS are obliged to tender it and provide funding, so the only way that changes, and the strictures on how, and to who the service is provided, is if central government alters the terms themselves, and nobody, not even the Tories, has the blindest bit of interest in removing the service wholesale or significantly changing the terms.

It's become more of a possibility since Brexit since the EU is no longer breathing down the necks of UK and Devolved governments, but everything is relative. There would be public uproar, given that the service originated at the behest of, and was originally supplied by Service Users themselves, but "more of a possibility" only really refers to the fact the likelihood has moved from "utterly inconceivable" to "in the realms of wildest fantasy".

It would require an enormous sea-change in the nature of Scots politics, and that isn't looking remotely likely, and it would also mean a change in the law that even the Tories would recognise straight away would be an egregious own-goal.

Roselilly36 · 16/02/2024 19:14

As a woman with MS, and a member of the MS Society, I think the treatment of this longstanding volunteer is disgusting.

BestBadger · 16/02/2024 19:17

I'm afraid so. In a not dissimilar way that they can force you to indulge all of the religions. At the very least, they can insist you don't discriminate against them.

I'd be careful arguing the case for "biological reality" to be the benchmark though, because there is a much stronger case for a biological component to gender than most of us think. So we could end up with women not being considered for certain jobs or roles because the "biological reality" suggests they're not going to be as good as men, or in other cases better.

There's obviously a lot that needs to be discussed, a lot more research needed but it's simply not happening where it should and where it is, it's dangerous to all of us, because of the extremists on both sides.

ADoggyDogWorld · 16/02/2024 19:18

Roselilly36 · 16/02/2024 19:14

As a woman with MS, and a member of the MS Society, I think the treatment of this longstanding volunteer is disgusting.

Rose this happened in the USA and is nothing to do with UK MS society.
(Unless you are living in USA)

DogsAkimbo · 16/02/2024 19:32

BestBadger · 16/02/2024 18:49

What? I simply pointed out the law and that just because a belief is protected (in this case an unbelief) it can be problematic.

Just because science supports the fact that there are two sexes, and the right to not believe in gender iideology is supported in law, it doesn't necessarily mean you can misgender at work, or whatever. That's just the law.

I don't know what this woman has done.

Awareness of biological sex being a reality is now ‘an unbelief’?

That’s… well.. I guess if I was a writer I’d have my next book idea.

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 16/02/2024 19:34

an agenda entirely unrelated to the mission of the organization what is the enforced use of pronouns if not this?

Josette77 · 16/02/2024 19:35

My ex husbands lovely 95 yo grandmother and I were always close. I sent her pics of our son, and Christmas cards, and visited when we were there.

She unfriended me on Facebook when I entered a relationship with a transman.

She always thought I should be a model (I'm way too short!) and remarked to my ex that I'm too beautiful to be in that sort of relationship. Lol

It is what it is. I'll take the compliment. 😉

She's 95. I'm not going to hold it against her she opposes my relationship. It probably is weird to her. It was weird to me at first too.

Pronouns in the email are weird as fuck to me. Partner doesn't do them. I don't. If my very girlie name doesn't say women, that sounds like a them problem.

If this is all it was then she should not be let go.

AlisonDonut · 16/02/2024 19:44

AGoingConcern · 16/02/2024 19:10

Or maybe the MS Society didn't comment because they rightly think that this shouldn't be adjudicated by a mass poll spurred on by random people with an agenda entirely unrelated to the mission of the organization. Or maybe they didn't think releasing detailed criticism of a volunteer publicly was appropriate.

But sure. Everyone should withhold their donations until the society bends to your wishes. Screw all those people with MS that the society would help with that money, they aren't really important here.

Yes. All charities should bend to my wishes.

That's exactly what I want.

AGoingConcern · 16/02/2024 19:50

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 16/02/2024 19:34

an agenda entirely unrelated to the mission of the organization what is the enforced use of pronouns if not this?

I don't know why you're talking about "enforced use of pronouns"

The MS Society's mission is to serve all people with MS, and they're not the ones trying to blow this up into a huge distraction from that purpose. Unfortunately that's the work of people on social media and at rags like the daily mail who heard the word pronoun and started salivating over its potential to use this in their unrelated agendas.

GrumpyPanda · 16/02/2024 19:57

AGoingConcern · 16/02/2024 19:10

Or maybe the MS Society didn't comment because they rightly think that this shouldn't be adjudicated by a mass poll spurred on by random people with an agenda entirely unrelated to the mission of the organization. Or maybe they didn't think releasing detailed criticism of a volunteer publicly was appropriate.

But sure. Everyone should withhold their donations until the society bends to your wishes. Screw all those people with MS that the society would help with that money, they aren't really important here.

Because there's only ever one organisation dealing with a problem, and we should stick with them come what may no matter how reprehensible their conduct. So shut up women, your concerns count after we have dealt with everything else, and integrity be screwed.

FYI, this lists has 9 (NINE) different organisations engaging in MS support for the US alone, and presumably all of them accept donations.

https://nonprofitpoint.com/charities-for-multiple-sclerosis/

Best Charities for Multiple Sclerosis

9 Best Charities for Multiple Sclerosis (MS) | Full List with Details

Join us as we explore the best charities fighting Multiple Sclerosis. Discover how your contributions can make a significant impact

https://nonprofitpoint.com/charities-for-multiple-sclerosis

nothingcomestonothing · 16/02/2024 19:59

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 16/02/2024 17:24

No. The most recent example I can think of is an individual who eventually revealed that they were largely sceptical of Mental Illnesses being a reality, and was of the opinion that they were mostly a figment of imagination.

Is that a WORIADS? Who knows? There doesn't appear to be any reference for what precisely is or is not a WORIADS, and it's certainly in no way illegal to hold that opinion. In any case, I'm not taking the chance that this individual can remain objective when meeting with Service Users who have the Protected Characteristic of Disability due to lifelong, profound Mental Health diagnoses. So despite passing DBS and undergoing training, we unanimously agreed they were not suited to being a volunteer within the organisation and rejected them.

I think you don't understand what WORIADS means, when you say 'Is that a WORIADS? Who knows? There doesn't appear to be any reference for what precisely is or is not a WORIADS'.

If a belief is WORIADS, in the legal sense,we absolutely do know it is because it has been adjudged as such in a court of law. It doesn't just mean any belief that's legal is therefore WORIADS, it has a specific meaning and protection under the law. A judge has specifically said, this x belief is WORIADS, and therefore covered by the Equality Act. It's not a matter of opinion, there is case law specifying that x belief is WORIADS and therefore a person cannot be discriminated against for holding it. It is not a matter of opinion.

The belief you describe that volunteer having if course is not protected under the Equality Act and holding it may well make that person unsuitable for the role they applied to. But you don't get to decide a person's beliefs are or aren't protected in law, the law has decided that believing that sex is fixed, binary and immutable is.

I echo PP that assuming something is ok because bigger organisations are doing it, isn't wise, and wouldn't be a defence in law. From what we know of this case in the US, if it were in the UK the volunteer who was dismissed would be in her rights to sue.

BestBadger · 16/02/2024 20:07

DogsAkimbo · 16/02/2024 19:32

Awareness of biological sex being a reality is now ‘an unbelief’?

That’s… well.. I guess if I was a writer I’d have my next book idea.

I was referring to the right "not to believe in gender ideology" as protected in case law. That's where it gets problematic. Even on the most basic level one persons understanding of gender ideology isn't necessarily the same as anothers.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2017/12/11/gender-ideology-tracking-its-origins-and-meanings-in-current-gender-politics/

DogsAkimbo · 16/02/2024 20:17

BestBadger · 16/02/2024 20:07

I was referring to the right "not to believe in gender ideology" as protected in case law. That's where it gets problematic. Even on the most basic level one persons understanding of gender ideology isn't necessarily the same as anothers.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2017/12/11/gender-ideology-tracking-its-origins-and-meanings-in-current-gender-politics/

I guess a mirror does indeed reverse the image. How about the below:

‘On the 10 June 2021 in Maya Forstater v CGD Europe UKEAT/0105/20/JOJ, the Employment Appeal Tribunal (EAT) found that gender-critical beliefs, such as the view that sex is fixed and should not be conflated with gender identity, did qualify for protection under the Equality Act 2010 (Equality Act)’

https://www.jmw.co.uk/services-for-you/employment-law/blog/what-does-decision-forstater-v-cgd-mean-employers

What does the decision in Forstater v CGD mean for employers?

https://www.jmw.co.uk/services-for-you/employment-law/blog/what-does-decision-forstater-v-cgd-mean-employers

AGoingConcern · 16/02/2024 20:19

Because there's only ever one organisation dealing with a problem, and we should stick with them come what may no matter how reprehensible their conduct. So shut up women, your concerns count after we have dealt with everything else, and integrity be screwed.

Absolutely every word of this is both incorrect and utterly irrelevant to my point.

The MS Society may well have handled this specific incident poorly. But social media pile ons and trash reporting fueld by ideologues is quite possibly the worst way to determine that.

And please stop pretending to be the voice of all women. Plenty of us loathe the gender critical brigade's obsession.

nothingcomestonothing · 16/02/2024 20:34

BestBadger · 16/02/2024 20:07

I was referring to the right "not to believe in gender ideology" as protected in case law. That's where it gets problematic. Even on the most basic level one persons understanding of gender ideology isn't necessarily the same as anothers.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2017/12/11/gender-ideology-tracking-its-origins-and-meanings-in-current-gender-politics/

Well the belief that is WORIADS is that sex is fixed, binary and immutable. Rather than not believing in something which can't be defined anyway. You don't need to define gender, to believe sex exists.

nothingcomestonothing · 16/02/2024 20:36

And please stop pretending to be the voice of all women. Plenty of us loathe the gender critical brigade's obsession.

Yeah, stop caring about the rights of women, women. You're so obsessed, why can't you be a bit chill when men are deciding to redefine the meaning of the word that describes your sex class?

oakleaffy · 16/02/2024 20:37

magicmole · 16/02/2024 13:11

I watched a clip from an interview with the volunteer Fran. According to her she saw messages that came in from "Freda Smith (she/her)" and asked what the pronouns thing meant. When told it meant they were showing they were "all-inclusive" she asked what that label meant because it didn't make sense to her and that the National MS Society and the local group she volunteered for had always been inclusive.

According to her, her only "offence" was to ask someone to explain what the pronoun declaration was for. There may of course be more to it but I've seen nothing from her (or from the MS Society so far) to suggest that she expressed any particular views about trans people or abused anyone.

That's absolutely ridiculous.
Pronouns are just so clunky in my opinion.

I never use them for myself, and am often misgendered {people assume I'm a man on internet forums}- but it doesn't bother me one iota.

GingerFinger · 16/02/2024 20:43

AlisonDonut · 16/02/2024 17:53

There is Zero evidence that anything else happened before or after her asking 'whats the pronouns thing about'.

Zero evidence there wasn’t… just her account in the daily mail….

GingerFinger · 16/02/2024 20:44

Panterus · 16/02/2024 16:34

Goodness, let's hope you are never on a jury with those levels of guesswork.

There might be more to the story. Perhaps someone in a position of power dislikes her because she is popular, long serving and kind. Lots of arseholes work in charities. Bullying is rife. She might be a perfectly lovely older lady for all you know.

I'm surprised you didn't go the whole hog and brand her a Karen. What a nasty, baseless and judgemental post.

And where is your evidence for all of your claims? I’m sorry I interrogate single sided accounts on the Daily Mail…

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 16/02/2024 20:48

nothingcomestonothing · 16/02/2024 19:59

I think you don't understand what WORIADS means, when you say 'Is that a WORIADS? Who knows? There doesn't appear to be any reference for what precisely is or is not a WORIADS'.

If a belief is WORIADS, in the legal sense,we absolutely do know it is because it has been adjudged as such in a court of law. It doesn't just mean any belief that's legal is therefore WORIADS, it has a specific meaning and protection under the law. A judge has specifically said, this x belief is WORIADS, and therefore covered by the Equality Act. It's not a matter of opinion, there is case law specifying that x belief is WORIADS and therefore a person cannot be discriminated against for holding it. It is not a matter of opinion.

The belief you describe that volunteer having if course is not protected under the Equality Act and holding it may well make that person unsuitable for the role they applied to. But you don't get to decide a person's beliefs are or aren't protected in law, the law has decided that believing that sex is fixed, binary and immutable is.

I echo PP that assuming something is ok because bigger organisations are doing it, isn't wise, and wouldn't be a defence in law. From what we know of this case in the US, if it were in the UK the volunteer who was dismissed would be in her rights to sue.

Ok, so go back and look at the post where I postulated about an openly "GC" volunteer.

This is not a scenario that has actually happened, but lets pretend for a moment it does. We're in no doubt that believing sex is immutable is a WORIADS belief. We are also in no doubt that being transgender is also a Protected Characteristic.

At this point, I'll remind you once again that I am obliged to discharge the function of the organisation in accordance with the stipulations in our contract, as provided to us by our commissioning partners. I can not ignore certain aspects of that contract even if I want to, I can't ignore them even if people outside the organisation disagree. I will also point out that Board Members are still liable legally, and as a sitting member of the Board, if I knowingly put the organisation in a position that leaves it open to prosecution, or the org collapses, the service is rendered inoperable, etc etc, I could, in theory, go to prison.

So we are in a scenario whereby there is supposed to be no hierarchy of protected characteristics, but there simply has to be for a number of reasons. I can not, if I have any doubts whatsoever, permit a volunteer to work in the organisation if I suspect it might lead to the harm, intentional or otherwise, of a service user. I know with certainty that some of my service users carry either one or multiple protected characteristics, what I do not know with absolute certainty is that a volunteer who holds beliefs that could potentially cause issues for certain service users will be capable of remaining objective and not disclosing that they hold those beliefs.

Am I going to take that risk? No, absolutely not, and I couldn't care less whether or not that is a material breach of EA2010, because my duty of care is to the service user, the organisation, and, considering that I could end up in prison for my poor judgement, myself. I do not have anything approaching that duty of care for a potential volunteer, because there is no legal compulsion whatsoever upon me to accept any and every volunteer who shows up. I will take the risk that I am in breach of the EA2010 where and when I believe it is absolutely necessary in order to pre-empt any possibility of a further, more damaging breach. This is exactly what my commissioning partners expect me to do, it's exactly what I'm supposed to do in order to follow best practice as laid out by the body responsible for national oversight.

In all likelihood, what would happen in reality is the potential volunteer would be subjected to further scrutiny and interview, and only if every member of senior management is satisfied there is no risk whatsoever, would they be approved to then proceed to work with the org. If I, or any of the other senior members have the slightest doubt, they will be refused, because I am not willing to run the risk of potentially harming a service user, bringing the org into disrepute, causing a legal shitstorm, losing our contract and losing the service for everyone, and potentially ending up facing charges myself. I'm quite happy to accept the risk that a potential volunteer takes the hump, but what I am totally unprepared to do is risk the entire continued operation of the organisation because I gave someone the benefit of the doubt when I had concerns.

"Insufficient Safeguards" is a common complaint about gender ideology. Surely then it's perfectly understandable why my organisation exercises absolute caution, even though the people I am eager to safeguard can be the very ones who are often accused of undermining safeguarding themselves. They still have rights, and a reasonable expectation that an organisation charged with a duty of care will not knowingly expose them to someone sanctioned by that organisation that they could find deeply objectionable. Is this not the very point made about potentially exposing vulnerable, traumatised women to male-bodied staff in support settings? That the organisation has a duty of care to prevent that?

I will also highlight that this is a specific scenario whereby a potential volunteer has been vocal in expressing their GC views. Firstly, if they simply kept those views to themselves we'd be none the wiser and have no reason to be concerned, but secondly, there is no reason whatsoever for them to express those views in the first place, because it's not something we actively enquire about, and it's not something that is discussed as a specific topic even though EA2010 is covered in training. The very fact a volunteer, unprompted, would feel the need to express their GC beliefs is what would give cause for concern.

So you can pretend all you like there is no hierarchy, but that's not how things work in practice, and it would not be workable in practice without disregarding safeguarding concerns. Again though, this is an entirely hypothetical scenario. If there is no hierarchy, and there should never be a "clash" where one party's rights are prioritised, then how does that work when when it's a traumatised woman and a trans member of staff? Both have protected characteristics, yet an organisation is apparently supposed to prioritise one over the other. There are hierarchies, because safeguarding is a thing.

AGoingConcern · 16/02/2024 20:49

nothingcomestonothing · 16/02/2024 20:36

And please stop pretending to be the voice of all women. Plenty of us loathe the gender critical brigade's obsession.

Yeah, stop caring about the rights of women, women. You're so obsessed, why can't you be a bit chill when men are deciding to redefine the meaning of the word that describes your sex class?

Just a stunningly disingenous response to what I actually wrote.

As a woman I don't appreciate being used as a shield for bigotry or treated as part of a monolithe. You're welcome to your own opinions, but stop speaking for the rest of us.

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