Page 7 | "Human Remains" isn't specific enough

Woodenwonder · 2024-02-14T22:02:05+00:00

Last weekend had an impromptu wander around the world museum in Liverpool. (Fantastic and free). Anyway in the Egypt section it states that the next exhibit features human remains or words to that effect. I'm thinking a sarcophagus with a mummy inside. And yes that was there, a couple of examples of wrapped up mummies, tastefully and respectfully displayed. Turn the corner and there are 3+ corpses. Not wrapped up and obviously somewhat dessicated. I'm not squeamish but I find looking at a collection of led out bodies (albeit 1000s of years old) a bit disrespectful for want of a better word. It made me feel really weird. Yes these souls are long gone but I was not prepared to see them laid out in that way. I don't think I was even expecting full bodies. Aibu to think the sign could have been a touch more descriptive before entering the room? The museum is a fantastic place but I just felt a little rattled.

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:44

homezookeeper · 15/02/2024 02:09

I wonder if they took that photo or googled it, but yes, if it's that offensive to the OP then why take it/post it for everyone else to see?

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Two things:

89% of posters think I'm being unreasonable being phased

And too show that clearly I'm not and even though you're on a thread about human remains - so you knew what was coming - the actual sight of human remains as full bodies can still be unsettling

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:45

InWalksBarberalla · 15/02/2024 02:10

I can't believe you found it so disrespectful but yet still managed to take a photo. And then to top it off post the photo on mumsnet. Hardly respectful behaviour.

I did not take a photo. It's on Google. Obviously.

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:46

RobinHumphries · 15/02/2024 03:22

The image….. the bodies are clearly wrapped so I don’t know what point you were trying to prove?

Don't worry about it.

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:46

Mumoftwo1312 · 15/02/2024 03:48

On the one hand op goes on about being respectful, a self styled "mega empath", then on the other, using a phrase like "human pepperami". Comparing a dead body to a cheap snack.

Yabu op, yabu.

It's all flesh, apparently. I'm being unreasonable to be phased so ...

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SausageRoll5862 · 15/02/2024 09:48

I've just Googled them. They look amazing and I read the fascinating articles. You go into a particular part of a museum KNOWING there are people in there who died yonks ago then get queasy when you see a couple of skeletons?

The sign stating ''Human Remains; Skeleton'' is very clear.

Whatever you do, don't ever get a job as a forensic scientist, a mortician or a pathologist!

I wouldn't go to a medical museum KNOWING there's bits of human stuff in jars then complain about feeling queasy!

So if you don't like skeletons then avoid certain parts of the museum. Simples!

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:48

ChocolateRat · 15/02/2024 03:59

What's the intent of the notice?

If it's there just to attempt to get people into a respectful state of mind and demeanour and to behave appropriately, then I think "the next exhibit features human remains" is sufficient.

But if it's intended to give an idea of the nature of what's there, let people know that the next room has certain exhibits that not every visitor may feel comfortable viewing, and give people an opportunity to make an informed decision on whether members of their party might find it distressing, then yeah, I agree that "human remains" is a bit too vague to fulfil that purpose adequately.

Not everybody can be assumed to have the existing knowledge or understanding to know precisely what to expect in that room. "Human remains" can be things like ashes in a jar, a single finger bone barely visible behind glass, an unrecognisable dried-out or preserved organ, a whole wrapped mummy complete with mask and accoutrements, ancient remnants of skeleton mixed up with grave goods, or sometimes a full desiccated corpse with face visible.

(I once came across the last of those completely unexpectedly, in a small Italian church. "Oh this looks like a nice church", "Ah isn't this bit beautiful", "It's so calm and cool walking through here", BAM surprise corpse display case. I should probably have read the town guidebook first, in retrospect.)

And many people who could cope with a murky finger bone, or a jar with a sign saying there are human parts inside, or a fully wrapped mummy, might struggle with seeing a dead human being, skin stretched taut over bones, and for a lot of reasons, may not have realised that they'd be seeing that. It could be the first dead person they've ever seen.

So really to me it depends what they were trying to do with the sign.

If it's to signal that respectful behaviour is expected in the next room, it's fine.

If it's intended to provide useful information to help people choose whether the display will be appropriate for their party, it's only useful if you have such a level of preexisting knowledge about what's there that you probably don't really need the sign.

Thank you for that balanced view, that's what I was thinking

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:49

Scalottia · 15/02/2024 05:43

Yep. OP is trying ever so hard to be witty. Soon there will be spat out tea and woken babies!

Since when did people become so fragile and delicate? We will all be human remains one day.

Our ancestors are probably shaking their heads at our need for trigger warnings. I wish that term would get in the bin! (Yes OP you didn't mention trigger warning, but you may as well have).

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Yes, I didn't the only person mentioning trigger warnings is you 🙄

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:50

Tiddlywinks63 · 15/02/2024 06:42

This ^^
For heaven’s sake don’t visit the Huntarian museum in London, it’s full of human remains and parts!

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Thanks for the heads up.

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:51

DogPaulAnka · 15/02/2024 07:02

I think the museum warning is fine but I had some sympathy with you feeling uncomfortable. I don’t know how you can possibly justify your position and then post this photo with no warning.

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Because so many posters seemed so at home with it and the majority rule is that I'm being precious and a bit thick by having a reaction to a dead person.

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WitheredBloom · 15/02/2024 09:54

SausageRoll5862 · 15/02/2024 09:48

I've just Googled them. They look amazing and I read the fascinating articles. You go into a particular part of a museum KNOWING there are people in there who died yonks ago then get queasy when you see a couple of skeletons?

The sign stating ''Human Remains; Skeleton'' is very clear.

Whatever you do, don't ever get a job as a forensic scientist, a mortician or a pathologist!

I wouldn't go to a medical museum KNOWING there's bits of human stuff in jars then complain about feeling queasy!

So if you don't like skeletons then avoid certain parts of the museum. Simples!

These things aren’t comparable though. A job as a mortician or pathologist has a specific role that supports the dead person and their relatives. Plus, you can go into a museum with an expectation and be disconcerted. I always loved this sort of thing but then I went to Colchester Castle and upon seeing the corpses on display, something shifted and I just felt like it was wrong and my opinion changed.

The idea of ‘you should know how to feel before you’ve experienced something’ is a bit naive and simplistic. You can go to somewhere and it not be what you expected and your reaction be different to what you expected too. It’s okay to change your mind.

DottieMoon · 15/02/2024 09:55

Ginandjuice57884 · 14/02/2024 22:07

They are human remains. Not sure how much more specific you can be without providing a reference image and defeating the point of the warning.

I agree, not sure how much clearer they can be. I think you are being ridiculous.

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:55

Jacopo · 15/02/2024 08:54

I was brought up going to that museum from a very young age and absolutely loved it. OP, you and your children are likely to have to face much worse things as you go through life, and it is good practice to move out of your comfort zone a bit. YABU. And the most disrespectful thing about this story is your description of the dead people.

My child is 21 so I think we're out of the woods.

My description of dessicated flesh feels banging on tbf.

I think you're being precious.

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Agapornis · 15/02/2024 09:56

Woodenwonder · 14/02/2024 23:13

Right?! That's why it felt a tad disrespectful as, in as much as they were very carefully displayed behind glass with muted light etc , they are still very much exposed for us to gawp at. Opened up the question how many years dead is acceptable for a human to be displayed in such a way? I mused on that whilst I was buying overpriced souvenirs in the gift shop

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There's thankfully lots of discussion now about this in the museum sector. As @Aecor put it, museums have withdrawn bodies from display, and are repatriating them.

That's just display though. Have a think about the poor sods who aren't deemed good enough to be looked at! I know of at least one Big London Museum that has human remains, but doesn't display or talk about them. 'Deaccessioning' i.e. removing objects from a museum collection, even to repatriate, can be difficult and in the British Museum's case, not legal. Yes, there's a law stopping them! It's quite something to steal, and then change the law so you can't be made to return someone's property.

I'd highly recommend the events at Barts Pathology Museum for the ethics around how human remains are treated (it is pretty much all human remains/bits in jars, definitely not for everyone).

In case you're worried about your own body, I think current archaeological good practice in the UK is that any human remains found must be respectfully reburied as soon as possible, within max 2 years. I don't think many public museums add newly 'discovered' human remains to their collection. There's also the Human Tissue Act stopping some of the Victorian 'this person is dead but has a weird medical condition, let's cut it off and bottle it' behaviour. I'm kind of hoping I'll be found in 2000 years, mummified in a peat bog with leathery skin and ginger hair...but then also reburied after a while.

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:57

Notacrescentcroissant · 15/02/2024 09:06

@Woodenwonder I think I would have liked it to say "the next room contains a small number of entire human bodies" I think that's succinct.
They may be entire, but they are mummified, so look different. So, that trigger warning would not work for you either
A sign saying 'Read the history of Egyptian mummification processes and the effect they have on the body because they won't look like you expect them to and might discombobulate you' is more apt.

That'd be great thanks 👍

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:58

SausageRoll5862 · 15/02/2024 09:48

I've just Googled them. They look amazing and I read the fascinating articles. You go into a particular part of a museum KNOWING there are people in there who died yonks ago then get queasy when you see a couple of skeletons?

The sign stating ''Human Remains; Skeleton'' is very clear.

Whatever you do, don't ever get a job as a forensic scientist, a mortician or a pathologist!

I wouldn't go to a medical museum KNOWING there's bits of human stuff in jars then complain about feeling queasy!

So if you don't like skeletons then avoid certain parts of the museum. Simples!

I won't go into that job thanks for the heads up. Go see them in person, you'll apparently love it.

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:58

TheLambtonWorm · 15/02/2024 08:31

Interesting when clearly intelligent and eloquent posters such as @Noideawwhatsoccuring make excellent points, and OP comes back with something to simply shut down that conversation. PP nailed it but you know she's right but you can't see past your willful ignorance, but that's ok......

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Ok thanks.

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:59

Notacrescentcroissant · 15/02/2024 09:10

😂😂

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Everyone seems ok with it tbf.

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Mumoftwo1312 · 15/02/2024 09:59

Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:46

It's all flesh, apparently. I'm being unreasonable to be phased so ...

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I think you're being very unreasonable. Some commenters, by no means a majority, felt you needn't be fazed by bodies. Many/most of us felt we would be fazed by bodies but that "human remains" would be a perfectly adequate warning to avoid that room.

Lots of commenters initially agreed with your stance that it's important to be respectful of dead bodies, what would the deceased have wanted, etc then KAPOW you call them "human peperami" and then post a photo. Wowie, you are so respectful of the dead. So mega empath.

You know you can click "sensitive photo" before uploading to mumsnet? And to illustrate your point perfectly, you could have chosen your own description that you feel is more apt than "human remains"?

C8H10N4O2 · 15/02/2024 10:00

Noideawwhatsoccuring · 15/02/2024 06:34

No I don’t think I have.

You went to an Egyptian exhibit. The sign said human remains. You saw the sign and misinterpreted it. You weren’t bothered about people ‘gawping’ at human remains as long as they were wrapped or in pieces or just their bones. You were quite fine viewing bodies or pieces of bodies that have been removed from their burial places and country as long as it for your view of what’s acceptable.

You were bothered when looked like human remains. As people have pointed out that you misinterpreted sign, but that’s on you. You have changed it to ‘I think it’s disrespectful’.

If you feel like that displaying dead bodies, removing them from where they were buried is disrespectful that’s fine. But you chose to participate. If you think it’s disrespectful, it’s disrespectful whether the bodies are wrapped or in pieces.

Really you just didn’t like being face with human remains that looked liked human remains. Again, that’s fine. But it’s not about having empathy.

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Yes agree with this.

A large museum with exhibits from ancient Egypt and a warning of "human remains" - why on earth would you be shocked to see mummies? Don't ever go to the British Museum.

As PP say, the remains are treated as grave sites in these large museums and if you don't want to see human remains you don't have to go into the exhibition. Whether its a whole mummy or skeleton or a few teeth and bones it is still human remains - either you are OK with this or you avoid the exhibition.

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Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 10:05

Mumoftwo1312 · 15/02/2024 09:59

I think you're being very unreasonable. Some commenters, by no means a majority, felt you needn't be fazed by bodies. Many/most of us felt we would be fazed by bodies but that "human remains" would be a perfectly adequate warning to avoid that room.

Lots of commenters initially agreed with your stance that it's important to be respectful of dead bodies, what would the deceased have wanted, etc then KAPOW you call them "human peperami" and then post a photo. Wowie, you are so respectful of the dead. So mega empath.

You know you can click "sensitive photo" before uploading to mumsnet? And to illustrate your point perfectly, you could have chosen your own description that you feel is more apt than "human remains"?

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It's not my own photo, it's clearly on display on Google too. Please learn to read properly.

And no I didn't know you can post "sensitive photo" and don't try and gaslight me into saying that lost of posters have said they'd be fazed because that's not the case. The vast majority are being very withering about delicate me.

The showing of the photo demonstrates how halting the image is - so if it feels uncomfortable on a screen, imagine not expecting it in person.

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Original poster

Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 10:05

C8H10N4O2 · 15/02/2024 10:00

Yes agree with this.

A large museum with exhibits from ancient Egypt and a warning of "human remains" - why on earth would you be shocked to see mummies? Don't ever go to the British Museum.

As PP say, the remains are treated as grave sites in these large museums and if you don't want to see human remains you don't have to go into the exhibition. Whether its a whole mummy or skeleton or a few teeth and bones it is still human remains - either you are OK with this or you avoid the exhibition.

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I'm clearly not ok with it. I need to learn to time travel back to when I first saw the sign.

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Original poster

Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 10:06

Guys, it's been enlightening. I'm off to work.
☺️

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Mumoftwo1312 · 15/02/2024 10:09

Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 10:05

It's not my own photo, it's clearly on display on Google too. Please learn to read properly.

And no I didn't know you can post "sensitive photo" and don't try and gaslight me into saying that lost of posters have said they'd be fazed because that's not the case. The vast majority are being very withering about delicate me.

The showing of the photo demonstrates how halting the image is - so if it feels uncomfortable on a screen, imagine not expecting it in person.

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I can read properly (and spell, while we are on the subject). I never said it was your photo. It was still disingenuous of you to post photos of mummies on SM when you originally said you felt it was disrespectful to ogle at them.

I'm not sure you know what gaslighting means.

We are nearly all agreed that "human remains" is an adequate warning. Whereas your initial argument is that it's an inadequate warning.

Why are you trying to prove some kind of point by posting a photo with no warning at all? I don't think you understand the logic of your own argument.

InWalksBarberalla · 15/02/2024 10:11

Woodenwonder · 15/02/2024 09:44

Two things:

89% of posters think I'm being unreasonable being phased

And too show that clearly I'm not and even though you're on a thread about human remains - so you knew what was coming - the actual sight of human remains as full bodies can still be unsettling

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That's completely unreasonable. This thread was about whether the words human remains were enough warning at the museum. So a thread about the meaning of the words.

If the thread was called human remains, or photos with human remains then posters could know to expect the picture.

Mumoftwo1312 · 15/02/2024 10:13

89% of posters think I'm being unreasonable being phased

Nope. 89% of posters think "human remains" is an adequate warning. Some of that group may be fazed by the remains, some may not.

I feel a Venn diagram coming on