To ask why women are expected to do everything?

[HolyGuacamole28]

I read a depressing article in the Economist today ‘How Motherhood affects careers’ and it stated how more and more women are not progressing as they should after having children. And SAHP is on the rise as more people opt out of a system doomed to failure. I just don’t understand how mothers are physically supposed to work full time in a career/senior role (I do), manage a household (I have a 4 year old, 2 year old and a husband, also FT) that includes washing, cleaning, cooking etc and do activities with the kids, keep fit and see friends. Is this what society expects? Who is supposed to do the household role if both adults work full time? And why do we need two incomes just to survive? (COL is so painful re mortgages, childcare, energy, food). Rant over, just can’t see how society has evolved, it’s just put more on our shoulders. I’m personally at breaking point.

I’m working 14-16 hour days right now.

That's not a full-time job! That's double a full-time job!

I really hope you're on time-and-a-half at least for the extra hours you're doing.

Is part of that having more women in boardrooms and the senior eschelons of power? Yes for sure

Further demonstration: there was no onsite daycare at Facebook HQ until Sheryl Sandburg got onto the board and demanded it.

I acknowledged the difference between countries, so don’t act like you’re the one mentioning it first. My point stands: if it seems like “feminism is for middle-class women,” as @donteatthedaisies0 said, it’s because a lot of the people who form the media narrative around what counts as “a feminist issue” exploit poorer women as a matter of course. That was the specific comment, about the specific issue, that I was replying to in the first place. Then people kept claiming it was about them, which is the only reason I’m even still talking about this.

Why would I be talking about sex trafficking and rape on a thread about what women are expected to do around the house? You remind me of a little kid who’s pissed off that s/he’s in trouble for cheating on a test - because what’s-his-name cheated on the final exam, and that’s worse, so why are you calling me out on my bad behavior? “Because right now I’m talking about you, so-and-so.”

Except that I was never talking about you in the first place, as much as you seem to want to believe that I was. You’re voluntarily aligning yourself with and defending women who use and exploit other women - because they deserve to be defended if someone else is worse, I guess. 🙄 Whatever. I’ve said everything I came here to say and now I’m done with this thread.

I can almost hear this man’s self love shattering and tinkling on the ground. 😂

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

Im working on my way to the top. No man or woman gets to c suite without putting the work in along the way. It’s tough. Sometimes to meet a deadline you need to make the sacrifice. Right now, that’s the spot I’m in and it shall pass. The best way out is through. I’m on my own now and it’s on me to provide for my children. Their father doesn’t want to contribute properly and I don’t fancy my chances with the Texas family courts.

It’s also why I think leveling up must include the tax code. It’s ridiculous we have so many hard working people receiving benefits because the tax system doesn’t properly support families working.

As for @YankSplaining, I wonder when you were last in the U.S. because I’ve been here 20 years and what you describe was happening in the 80s but doesn’t happen now. Sure we have illegals here in Texas providing childcare but they are well paid, the same as Americans. It’s extremely difficult to find childcare. You grab what you can and if you don’t pay, there is a line of families who will. Same with cleaners. It’s $200 per week for my home to be cleaned. If you want to pay less, the team drop you. They have a wait list.

These arguments always come up and I'm struck by so many points;
1.) Men rarely show their true colours until children come along. Roughly you're equal, both working full time, separate finances etc. Women, like me, sometimes think we enjoy doing things around the house. We enjoy cooking, we have certain standards of cleanliness or want to make our homes warm, comforting etc. Its only when we ask for help, usually in the context of having a baby to look after. Suddenly we find out how inept these men are. As soon as you lose some 'power' they change.
2.) Some women like to believe that the reason that these 'selfish' women try to work full time is for 'foreign holidays, fancy cars, mobile phones' etc, its the middle class version of Sky TV.
That is just not true and most people applying for a mortgage now need two incomes. It's not just due to income, but it's more secure too. I'm not on a bad wage but I wouldn't be considered for a mortgage on a house on my own now, there's no way. Very few single people would be able to get a mortgage for a family home. It's all very well if you're already on the property ladder but you still need to remortgage.
3.) Ok so you decide to leave your DH for not pulling their weight, then what? Then you really are doing it on your own. What I realised was that even though my ex wasn't very good around the house but he was at least a presence in the house so should I need to go to the shop, clean the bathroom, mop etc then he would at least be there for the children. Now it's all on me. So although I feel much less resentful, it's still me doing it all.
4.) All the hand wringing about 'why do women these days need to work, it's so unfair!' Well I want to. I honestly really want to. I love my job. I trained for it. That's what shit about the whole situation. You have two people who both work full time, they find the situation impossible when they have children. One has to leave their job, and 9 times out of 10, it's the woman. Do you think all those women gleefully leave? No, I imagine they're grieving, frustrated, resentful a lot of the time.
But I know for a fact that my ex wouldn't have left his lower paid job so I could work, despite me having the earning potential, despite my education, despite my ambition.
5.) We can rarely have it all, so now what? Do we give up? Do we go backwards? Do we demand equality?
Women who stay at home in order to maximise their husbands earning potential are damaging working women's chances at being promoted. When an employer sees me, they see flexible working requests, asking to leaving early, days off for sickness, bringing nits into the office and bubblegum toothpaste on my trousers. They don't see that when they look at male employees.
When they hear I'm a single mum it gets worse. 'It sounds like you've got a lot on'.
The only way we can progress is if we stop sacrificing our careers, tell our DH/ OH's that we aren't stepping down, demand that they ask for flexible working agreements and hold them accountable for shit around the house.
If we just begrudgingly do it, then the world will expect more and more.
Women need to stop expecting other women to become superhuman. Not that long ago, there was a poster asking about when she could find time to exercise daily. She was a full time teacher, two kids, husband who also worked outside of the the home. I was shocked with how many were saying 'well you could wake up at 5 to do an hour of exercise?' 'You could walk in your lunch break (what lunch break?)''You could go to the gym at 9pm every night'

@Notfeelingitwasworthit

This really resonates:

When an employer sees me, they see flexible working requests, asking to leaving early, days off for sickness, bringing nits into the office and bubblegum toothpaste on my trousers. They don't see that when they look at male employees.
When they hear I'm a single mum it gets worse. 'It sounds like you've got a lot on'.

I get up at 4:30am to run at 4:45am because my meetings start at 6am and go through to midnight. I’m juggling 3 children, running a home and it’s a lot. It drives me crazy that I’m judged so poorly in a work environment despite delivering on time, in full and continuing to exceed expectations despite very difficult circumstances.

I work when the kids are sick, I pay to see an out of network doctor with work friendly office hours, I put tea tree oil in the conditioner so the kids don’t get nits (no idea if this works but I do not have the bandwidth to deal with nits) and I do the afterwork drinks with the guys.

It’s 12:45am here. I’m on my last call of the day. Tomorrow is a run day, one kid has math tutoring, the other therapy and despite them being with their father it’s me and who has called the tutor and therapist to fill them in with what is going on and what I see happening that they should be aware of. Their father is the first to say he does 50%. No he barely shows up and when he does, he is in the way.

@Aintnosupermum you sound like a super mum to me.

I think everyone finds different things stressful.

I honestly am not stressed out by having children and a relatively high flying career. Of course it takes some organisation and our home isn't a show home.

But I think I would be unhappy and even sink into depression if I stopped working.

I stress, everyone is different, I am not saying that being a SAHM is depressing for everyone.

I think also that being high flying makes things easier. I have:

A PA which helps organise my diary and inbox
Enough money to pay for things like holiday clubs and a cleaner
Value at work so they want to keep me and can't easily replace me so I get flexibility when I need it

I think it's a lot harder for working parents in lower paid, less flexible employment

I agree with this.

Being at my level comes with advantages I wouldn't otherwise have such as controlling my diary, general flexibility and the fact that I'm able to WFH and finish early if I have no meetings and everything else is done for the day.

It's a reason why I didn't have DS until I was 35.

The modern era has brought about an abundance of choices for women, which has resulted in some trying to balance various aspects of their lives, including career, family, materialism, and motherhood. However, this can have unintended consequences.
Additionally, it's worth noting that every aspect of our lives has been commercialized, including activities such as fitness and children's playtime. Gone are the days when kids play outside unsupervised, as parents now often opt for organized activities and social events.
Finally, it's important to acknowledge that corporate ideals have become a ubiquitous presence in our daily lives. Certainly, women are ideal customers for the monetisation of daily life.

This thread popped back into my head as I'm distracting myself today because my late DPs birthday is today and it's only been two years so. .. wobbly.

Anyway, ended up down a YouTube rabbit hole, and have come across a video that highlights a chap called Steven Crowder. Have never come across him before but he's a " commentater" in the States apparently. So some ring doorbell footage got leaked of an interaction between him and his heavily pregnant wife that I personally think illustrates to a tee what women are up against, still, despite all our alleged privilege and progress.

Depressing but worth a watch I think, especially in the context of this thread.

Women aren't expected to do everything are they? I don't place that expectation on myself nor does my husband. I frequently find myself taking on jobs because its easier for me but that's my own fault. I am also guilty of giving my husband jobs to do that he does better though so we're even.

It is really hard even if your partner pitches in. Some days I am just overwhelmed with the relentlessness of it all, but some days I appreciate the routine. It doesn't seem we have enough downtime and more often than not we both wake up still exhausted. Every week there is a house issue to sort (husband is amazing at DIY and general maintenance) , we owe a large property and land and he maintains it all, when he is particularly busy then most of the regular housework falls on me, when he is not then he pitches in more on the regular household chores. I do most of the cooking and he does bedtime. We are definitely not up to date with the tenths of emails we get from school every week, and kids only do one or two extra curricular activities a week, one of them being in the weekend. We have no help from either side of the family, apart from maybe minding the kids so we can have 3-4 date nights a year, yet often I have been asked by family members why kids don't do this art club or this other activity...as if we had the time to take them on top of both working 40 hours a week, doing all the house keeping and cooking and supporting them with their homework...nah...I just don't fancy having more on my plate tbh.

I suspect neither of you are lawyers working for law firms then!

Are you teaching your children any different? Or are you just continuing the cycle of teaching daughters that this is what's expected of them and sons that they get to do less? I hate the idea of teaching girls that their happiness only matters until they get a married/have children.

It was you who raised foreign workers and cash-in-payments, not me.

You’re voluntarily aligning yourself with and defending women who use and exploit other women

Nope. I'm refusing to let you hold women to a higher standard than men just because you fell foul of the Mean Girls set at university. Men routinely exploit illegal immigrants in far worse ways than women do. Feminists take note of that fact.

Im working on my way to the top. No man or woman gets to c suite without putting the work in along the way.

If that's what you want, then learning who to suck up to and how is way more valuable than working stupid hours. I've done all-nighters in the past and it got me nowhere bar a couple of bonuses that my immediate manager nominated me for because, being autistic, by definition my face can never fit.

Overtime can harm your career because the exhaustion affects your ability to be likeable at work amongst other things.

Plus, the ROI for overtime falls with each extra hour you work over 50 hours per week and drops to zero after 55 hours as you get tireder.

Who is supposed to do the household role if both adults work full time?

Once children are at school it really isn't a full role, not even close. Modern appliances make washing & cleaning much faster.

I do think children lose out somewhat if both parents are out 8 - 6.30pm (eg full time hours plus 1 hour commutes).

But housework, when split evenly, doesn't have to overwhelm. Half an hour each of an evening and longer on a weekend.

For most people i think a mix of one parent doing 3/4 days and the other 5, or both doing 4/4.5, works really well especially if combined with some home working to reduce commute time.

If that's what you want, then learning who to suck up to and how is way more valuable than working stupid hours.

This is so so true

God, that Crowder fellow's an arse, @MistressoftheDarkSide! Even in his "sad she's divorcing me" message, he's mostly sad that his state allows women to divorce their husbands 😲

https://nypost.com/2023/04/28/steven-crowder-berates-pregnant-wife-over-wifely-duties/

No, I'm not.

I didn't realise that only lawyers working for lawyers could contribute their views.

Used to be a teacher, girls school, mostly women staff. Chatting one day I found that many of them either had help-au pair, ironer, cleaner etc because they simply didn't have time to do everything. It's not possible if both of you have full time, full on jobs.

Agree.

Of course a lot depends on your standards - I don't give a monkey's about things like my skirting boards which definitely helps.

And also your set up - we don't have pets for example which can add a lot of work.

We do have a cleaner once a week for four hours but we could do this ourselves if we really wanted to.

I don't know what I would do with someone full time looking after our house, it just isn't a full time job!