To think this is a fucking joke - A@E wait?

[CanNeverThinkOfAName]

So our local hospital serves 350,000 residents from a large area.

Arrived at A&E at 11pm. Expected it to be packed and to have a long wait. There were around 15 patients waiting. At 3am there were 4 still in the waiting area plus us.

From that time only one person has been called to see a doctor and at least 10 people have gone out after being seen.

Ambulance staff check patients in near where we are sitting and only 3 have checked in since we got here.

Obviously not a busy night.

AIBU to think this is totally piss take and the staff must be on a bloody go slow or something?

Oh and last year we took my five year old son in who couldn't stop coughing and was struggling to breathe. We went in at 4 pm.He coughed and threw up in a and e, they handed me a mop and paper towels to clean it up. We sat there for four hours with no communication, I watched the staff on a and e make reindeers out of sick bowls and bed pans, still ignoring my coughing child.

Eventually at just after midnight they took us up to a ward where he was given a chest X ray at three am in the morning.

They then said he had to stay in meaning a hours round trip for my husband to get some clothes.

They gave me a fold up bed, with no sheets , cover or duvet.

We were there for four nights and were not offered food or drink once.

There was no where for me to wash

They put an oxygen monitor on him and a mask which every time his sats dropped an alarm went off. No one ever came to check him . In the end I went and spoke to them and they told me to keep adjusting the mask, which I did, every ten minutes for four nights.

It was traumatizing. My husband came and sat with him for a few hours so I could go home and get clean after two days .

I cried all the way home and all the way back at the thought of more nights in there.

Nonsense.
Too many overpaid diversity managers and not enough doctors and nurses.
NHS needs a total reform.

I don’t understand why medical professionals keep insisting more money is the solution instead of demanding that the NHS should be better managed.

You left out people waiting for care packages or PT or OT assessments. Waiting for pharmacy. So many things need to be in place for discharging some patients.

IFS is probably on the side of totally privatising it and lining some career politican with fingers in other pies' pockets.

@Ratherstandonacliffandsetfiretomyself with all due respect my dd was referred to CAMHS about 9 years ago. There were no services available to her but it was odd how they had resources to assess her to indicate she wasn't high enough risk for immediacy. They did that five times. And lied some more. They oukd have rolled out half a dozen seasions of therapy for the money it cost them to make excuses. The most interesting comment was from a very experienced CAMHS mental health nurse "she's far to old to have ADHD at 17". I kid you not.

The first time she was assessed we arrived at the building at 9.15 for a 9.30 appointment. Not one member had turned into work on time, we stood on the doorstep. Yet so often we hear that CAMHS is 9-5. It jolly well isn't if the staff turn up 15 minutes late every day and the answering machine is always on at 16.55.

To add insult to injury after a review in 2014, the CAMHs service was given an additional £2.5m by the LA. They pissed it up the wall on a new layer of bureaucracy which was a disaster and didn't work. Not on nurses, not on an additional psychiatrist. This meant there was a further review in 2018 which cost hundreds more thousands of pounds.

On the one occasion dd ended up at A&E the NHS has money for overnight admissions with a MH nurse to facilitate a CAMHS review which leads to nothing. It costs about £950. It ought to be used to fund the therapy CAMHS can't be arsed to provide. And dd didn't need an admission, the crisis has passed but A&E don't listen to parents and couldn't triangulate she was safety netted by a co nsultant psyciatrist privately because they didn't bother phoning me for four hours. So more money gets pissed up the wall.

All CAMHS did was try to parent blame and make excuses. What happened to my daughter? She took a first from Cambridge and has just been assessed as an inspirational teacher. She recovered and all that happened because we had £8k to get her help and a diagnosis privately.

CAMHS meanwhile didn't turn up for work on time and pissed millions up the wall.

Surrey & Borders.

Any update on dd's condition OP? Hope she's okay. @CanNeverThinkOfAName

Well I’d personally rather not be paid 26% less than my counterparts in 2008 in real terms. I work really really hard. I make huge personal sacrifices. I have had to outperform peers at multiple stages academically, it’s been all consuming. Why should I settle for being paid so much less than peers who graduated 10 years before me? And watch wages continue to be eroded. We’ve had a bigger real terms pay cut than other professions.

People don’t want to pay for their care. Ageing is a privelige. And I don’t think young people should be subsidising it to this extent. We should be prepared to pay for our care if we’re lucky enough to make it to old age (I see many who die far too young). We can’t keep expecting as a society for other people to fund our care if we have a house worth £400k that we want to pass down rather than use to fund our care.

I totally agree with this.

@peakygold walking into A&E doesn’t mean you’re not sick. I’ve seen stabbing victims walk in. What about a subarach who walks in with a headache? They may be dead without neurosurgery in the next 12 hours. The child with meningitis who deteriorates and could die in a matter of hours. The suicidal patient. The upper GI bleed who’s coughed up a small amount of blood in their sick a few times that day but is about to hose out their entire blood volume from their mouth thanks to a Variceal bleed. What about the patient who walks in with a bit of chest pain who has bilateral PEs causing right heart strain and ends up thrombolysed. The young patient who’s taken too much ibuprofen and has a stage 3 AKI with an asymptomatic potassium of 7.8 who could have a cardiac arrest at any moment.

I don’t know what your role is but you are spreading dangerous misinformation.

Patients shouldn’t attend for management of a long term condition, but plenty of dangerous issues will still allow someone to walk into a waiting room.

As a doctor I do not condone the experiences on this thread. I think you’re all realising now the nhs isn’t breaking it’s broken. We’ve known this a while, the public are now suffering the consequences.

None of us think it is acceptable. It’s killing us working in a broken system. But it’s not the staff who are at fault.

Think before you vote Tory again.

The total reform advocates will be looking at privatisation, I expect. One way or another.

Look how well that's gone in water services. Failure to invest, stripping cash out for bonuses and then charging us £20m to fix the problem they caused. Whilst still pocketing bonuses.

If there is no spare money, there is none for profit.

And every single government for 20 plus years has clamoured about "poor management ", mostly to divert attention from their own failings.

For example, have they joined up health and social care properly? No, still not.

Most of the loudest shouters about what is needed in the nhs don't work in it, don't understand it, and a very good many couldn't run a paper shop.

All the while demoralising the existing workforce with criticism of so called lazy works (ha fucking ha), so that they want to leave.

Now, I wonder who would benefit from that?

Part of the issue is that they are limited in what they are allowed to actually go on strike about. Hence enormous frustration with the government refusing to negotiate - I suspect that meaningful and believable changes to conditions would make a still inadequate payrise better. And would certainly be more effective in reversing the emigration of doctors!

Doctors most definitely complain about both, Ime.

@Medstudent12 do you not recall that in 2008 there was a financial crisis. That impacted most professions. Doctors and nurses have far more job security over a career than most other professions. Academics have suffered, architects have suffered, teachers have suffered, even lawyers and accountants have suffered.

The situation was made worse by the pandemic. The public shut down to save the N H Bloody S. Regrettably the NHS did not open up swiftly for us. Parts of my local health economy are still working from home. Do I think the little madam who refused to believe my back was broken and spoke to me like sh1t deserves 26%? Do I think the CAMHs nurse who told me my dd was too old to have ADHD at 17 deserves 26% more? Do I think the little sh1t who recently refused to help an 87 year old lady to book a blood test deserves 26%. No I don't and that level of poor service would elsewhere result in a performance management dismissal.

Regrettably the standards will not improve whilst those within the NHS think it's free and think they are doing people a favour. They aren't. They are doing jobs funded by the public's taxes. The public is no longer prepared to be grateful for sub optimal services and had the gratitude waned a little sooner, the NHS might have been put back on track sooner. Even two or three years ago there was thread upon thread on here exhorting those who had been treated with indignity and had had botched births to be grateful because the NHS was freeeeeee. It isn't.

Why should the NHS be given more resources to waste. I want a European social insurance system where medical services are better, like in France, Germany and Austria. Or even Canada or Australia and if those sorts of systems are so poor tell me why so many Dr's are leaving the UK for Aus and Canada please. If they argue for the NHS and against any form of privatisation they shouldn't be going to work in a part privatised social insurance system. oh but of course, when theybleave the UK they leave their student debt behind - it ahoud be reclaimed but of course it never will

When one adds up junior Dr's shift allowances, overtime, etc., you aren't earning £14ph, it's much more with a very good future ahead. On the other hand, I pay my cleaner £15.50 but I wouldn't if she were as rude or as slap dash as many in our hospitals.

Perhaps you might also be able to tell me where you think people who slag off their employer to every external or internal stakeholder they speak to could continue to do so and keep their jobs. I'd be dismissed if I did it.

The NHS has been in decline since 1947 when Bevin stuffed the GP's mouths with gold to make them support it. It was declining and in deep financial trouble by 2010 after Blair and Brown had let PFI rip through it, basking in the glory of shiny buildings, built on sand. Someone had to pay for them - guess what it was the institution that borrowed all the money to look good.

Please don't have the audacity to tell me for whom to vote. Being a Dr does not give you that right.

"Do I think the little madam who refused to believe my back was broken and spoke to me like sh1t deserves 26%? Do I think the CAMHs nurse who told me my dd was too old to have ADHD at 17 deserves 26% more? Do I think the little sh1t who recently refused to help an 87 year old lady to book a blood test deserves 26%. No I don't and that level of poor service would elsewhere result in a performance management dismissal."

This. I try not to get involved or pass comment on threads like this as it always gets heated and inevitably those who work in the NHS come in to defend themselves and their colleagues - Usually saying things like "Unless you work in the NHS you can't comment!" etc

It's great that some of you lovely people here on MN who work within the NHS try your darndest and can't stand that the NHS is the way it is, but at the end of the day? The experiences like above happen. And people who have experienced those thing 100% have the right to comment when they've received beyond sub-par care or treatment.

It's great that those commenting on this thread are dedicated hard workers who actually care and work their fingers to the bone or what-have-you, but not all of your colleagues are.

Time and time again in articles, via stories from friends/family, personal bloody experiences, hell even just on MN, threads are created about absolutely appalling quality of care, people being disbelieved, being fobbed off, being mocked, their pain not being taken seriously, people dying because their not "hamming up" their pain in order to actually be seen, things being misdiagnosed, or just missed entirely for YEARS on end, I could go on for hours listing things off.

Are all of these people lying or exaggerating just to hurt you and your beloved "can do no wrong" NHS? Or is the NHS in a state where it has some workers who genuinely care, and others who couldn't give a shit and just want to get their day over with as quickly and with as little stress as possible so they can get their pay check at the end of it?
Other Posters have posted and linked to info about declining quality of care despite being given more and more money, so it begins to raise the question where is the money going because it's certainly not on care.
The negative stories about the NHS are becoming more and more regular with alarming outcomes - where is the line drawn?
It's great that you yourself are a hard worker and caring, but again, not all are.

Don’t think you should really give more than 2L02 via NC unless humidified so there is an extra machine to find;)

If I remember correctly- and obviously as I’m only a Paeds nurse I must not- I do not think nurses ever asked for 26%.
regardless- do you not all see cause and effect? Pay people poorly- they will not be able to work at 100%, why- because they are either working agency on top, or dropping their hours and claiming UC. Or doing a bit of both. Plus burn out is a real thing.
You are right in one thing though- the money is not going to the workers.
we can no longer use agency staff, we are running on half staffing numbers and some wards are lucky to have the minimum of 2 nurses on shift. (BTW, for those of you non medical, you need 2 RNs to check IVs and controlled drugs, if you only have one, then no chance of anything stronger than Ibuprofen.)
what a lot of you see as nurses and are moaning about, are not nurses. They are HCA’s, or the equivalent. They are unregistered and unregulated staff.
The nurses are very few and far between.
I am not asking for thanks, and given that I work on a CHILDRENS unit, just not being assaulted and verbally abused would be a start.
Whilst I appreciate people getting stressed and distressed- when there is a sick child and we have an active resus, and people moaning at me for not being triaged within 20 minutes- who is that actually helping.
If your child is seriously unwell then they will get the same care as the one needing several critical care drs, 2 anathestists, several critical nurses, a paediatric consultant and a couple of Paeds nurses to add to it.
Whilst the NHS has many failings, they are not due to the staff doing the care. I have been doing my job for 20 years, and it is so easy to criticise when you have no idea of what the reality is.
Personally, the mental health patients that are coming through is more than quadruple what I dealt with up til the last 5 years. Parents expecting us to be able to care for their children whilst they toddle off home, more immigration with children who have several comorbidities. It all adds up. And that is just in Paeds. I have no idea how my colleagues in adults cope. We used to have summer and winter fluctuations- no longer, we are full all year round. Full. That means no beds, which shock horror means patients stuck in A&E and assessment units.
But, obviously we should put up and shut up, allow unsafe staffing to continue. Which means more people leave, more unsafe staffing.
Oh, and obviously the easy answer to that is to recruit from abroad, don’t worry about the culture issue, language issue, lack of knowledge about the kit we use, the fact that training in other countries is very variable and can take a good couple of YEARS to get them trained up to what I would expect from a NQN.
The ignorance on this thread is outstanding.

Your child should be getting bloodwork done while waiting to determine blood group in case they need a transfusion and to determine blood loss levels based on prior data they have for her. Maybe speak to triage? When I had internal bleeding I was also given a medication to stop the bleeding while waiting.

Not sure that you meant to respond to me? My comment was about the experience of non-clinical middle managers who according to many on here there is no need for. I've never made suggestions that services work perfectly but the main issue IS lack of funding. 9 years ago is not the same as it is now.

I totally agree.

Doc's AHPs and Nurses are leaving the NHS, poor comparative pay and not very good T&C's.

My friend works in the Neuro community team, she has huge patient lists, 6 month average waiting lists to see a patient (one Parkinsons patient has waited over a year)
They have funding for an extra OT but after 2 years they ve had no applicants.
On friday she started at 7am, worked unpaid for 1 hour to write up notes, started paid work at 8am, had her first break at 4pm, when she officially finished, actual finish time was 5pm, so 2 hours unpaid and no TOIL as it was pre authorised.
This isn't uncommon for her or her team.

No amount of "excellent" management can compensate for lack of staff.

One problem the NHS has is the amount of PT staff, so much time taken up with hand overs, lack of continuity.

@jasflowers so a professional person worked 10 hours. I do that every day, sometimes more, often a bit at weekends. It's what professional people do. Usually without such a good pension and the job security.

@RosesAndHellebores I ve read your posts on this and other threads, you re not a fan.

I suppose i would be classed as working in a "profession" yes you re right, often work longer hours, sometimes unpaid but never am i under the constant stress i see NHS staff have to suffer, from management, patients and families.

I also earn considerably more, as do you, my friend could never afford a cleaner, though she soon might be able too, has had a job offer from a private health care company at 50% more salary, company car, PHI and an excellent pension.
Her dilemma is that she knows her leaving will mean an even bigger hole in the NHS in her locality.

So the point you ve missed is that there simply isn't enough staff to match demand.

@jasflowers do forgive me, I thought your friend was a doctor not a nurse. Nevertheless nurses are now highly qualified post graduate practitioners we are told.

Why should I be a fan when I have had more less than optimal experiences than optimal ones, delivered by people who generally are rude or are surrounded by an infrastructure that is dysfunctional, professionally and socially?