DD4 and DS2 - when should DD ' get ' sharing and taking turns

[sharingiscarin]

My DD has just turned 4 and her little brother is about to turn 2.

They're having trouble sharing / taking turns etc. lots of fights. They push each other, although thankfully no hitting.

Sometimes my 4 year old is kind and does let her brother have a turn with things, when he's really crying about wanting to have a go.

He does antagonise her and pushes her and she also pushes him, but her pushing him is getting less.

How do I navigate this the right way ? I try to anticipate fights, so I always get them two of the same thing / toys / food etc.

But they both have bikes for example and the little one always wants to go in his sister's bike. Sometimes she lets him and other times she doesn't let him and a fight breaks out.

I think my DD struggles with taking turns at nursery as well and I would like to support her to be able to take turns better in general- especially since she'll start reception soon.

How can I help my DD ' get it '? Or does it just take time and emotional maturity ?

Sometimes sharing is appropriate and sometimes isn't not.

The example you give of the bike. Its her bike. She shouldn't have to share or take turns with it. He doesn't use it. It's her bike.

Whereas say a swing, which should be shared, then they should both be encouraged to take turns on it. Use a countdown to change is a good idea.

But it's really really important that both children are allowed to have thing that are theirs that they have control over

What I am essentially saying is, how do I explain the benefits of just being kind ? I have a book on it which she likes to read. It's great and gives examples.

But she doesn't always follow that advice in the moment. Sometimes she does and I'm so proud.

I have been doing small rewards, where she gets a star if she's kind. Is this the right way to do it ?

Sorry if this sounds really silly. But she's my first and it all stresses me out so much.

I got her nursery report yesterday and in a few categories she's been marked down as ' emerging ' rather than expected. Around building relationships for example. I can't help but feel really sad about this and feel like I'm not doing the right things at home.

That's a good point. But she also likes to go into his little car. So are you saying that when they want to use each other's toys, I shouldn't allow it at all ? Or I shouldn't allow it, if the other one wants to use it too?

Example, she'll start using his car, he'll be no where near it, but because she's in it- he then wants to use it.

She's only four, and she's learning all the time.

Far far too often women in particular are expected to be kind at the expense of their own needs. It's really important that she doesn't learn that he needs don't matter.

Is she also getting lots of individual attention and age appropriate interaction?

This might be bullshit… but I read a post once somewhere by (I think!) a German living in the U.K. about small kids sharing.
She said that the prevailing lesson everyone here wanted to teach about manners was, “give it to her - you have to share”, whereas in Germany the teaching was, “don’t take it - it’s not yours”. When mine were little, I often thought about that. Sometimes I think it’s good to remember. I know he’s only 2, but the bike is a good example of where he should be told, “no - it’s not yours”.

I have been doing small rewards, where she gets a star if she's kind. Is this the right way to do it ?

So taking your bike example she would get a star if she shared, but no star if she rightly decided she didn't want to as he could just use his bike?

If so that's a slippery slope to go down and not one I would be encouraging. She doesn't always need to share, and it's wrong to punish her for using things that are hers.

Both of them should be able to understand that certain things belong to each other. And that they don't use them without the other permission

When my kids were little we would use a timer sometimes - so you can each have two minutes, and we swap when the timer finishes. It takes the emotion out of it a bit.

Some things are so precious they shouldn't HAVE to share unless they offer.

So get your DS a balance bike for his birthday

Other toys should be communal so use those for sharing lessons.

Do you mean being kind for the sake of it, giving up her personal things and space just to make someone else happy for a moment? Because that’s a very poor life lesson to teach, especially with her being a girl.

Your youngest is very much in the ‘mine’ stage, distract and redirect is the best way to deal with this. ‘Mary is playing with the car, so let’s go build blocks!’. They’re both still very young, young kids are inherently only interested in their own needs. There’s no need to force an idea that they need to give to others at this point.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

You're right that she shouldn't have to give in, because the two year old isn't getting his way.

And also a fair comment, it's her bike- so he should not be going on it.

I guess you're also right that I shouldn't be rewarding her kindness for the sake of being kind.

I should only be rewarding her when she's taking turns appropriately.

Honestly I wasn't hugely concerned, but I don't like her report at all.

This.

She's only four. It's entirely normal for her not to be hitting all the normal milestones in everything.

If you are genuinely concerned then ask nursery for advice about what they are doing to support her

What is it about her report that you don't like?

Building relationships isn't always a priority for children. It might be that she prefers to play alone, or with specific children (who might not always be there).

That's what I thought. But then other parents were getting upset their children were only in the ' expected ' category for everything and not in the ' exceeding ' category.

So I started to think that maybe my expectations are too low or something ? I was happy she was in the expected category for the majority of things tbh until I spoke to other parents.

Nursery always tell me she's doing really well and have no concerns.

You are going to have years and years and years of parental comparison and competitive parents.

For your own sanity you need to learn to ignore all thr comparison and focus on your child and whether your child is doing well for them.

If you didn't have concerns, and nursery hadn't raised concerns before the report then please don't start worrying.

I agree she shouldn't have to share her things.

In my experience there are differences between older and younger from the starts, so possibly different strategies needed. My oldest feels inherently usurped by younger siblings and dislikes their cack-handed playing style that has sometimes broken beloved toys. He blossoms under a regime of having what's his, others not allowed to touch special things, no going in his bedroom.

My second child loves the older one and wants to be the same. So feels proud if any personal stuff is deemed worthy to be played with by older sibling! Therefore no need to promote sharing, as a go on the bike/ wear my jumper etc would always be offered (usually scornfully declined by older, I dont want that baby thing!)

We then praise younger for being kind (both in terms of sharing own things and NOT taking big brother's things).

As they get older, the older one also now gets praise for "letting it go" - You know it really doesn't matter if your brother uses something for 5 mins does it? Come and hang our with the adults, you're more like us than the little ones. That works for older now who gets "adult" treats like going to more adult places where the little ones can't come - we reinforce that's because he behaves more like an adult in his attitudes. But like an adult, he can rely on having agency over his own stuff.

At 2 and 4 though there's no way to know how they will pan out. Just give them both lots of reinforcement for both sharing and leaving the other to their privacy.

Finally - the other thing to reinforce now, as you get started, is the category of common resources. It is a huge world of pain when you have to buy 2 sets of felt tips, books, CDs, special individual footballs, blah blah...

We say, if it's something for all of us to use, all of us can use it. This goes for paper, paint, pens, a general large toy like big wooden train set, board games, food.... and clothes as soon as they NO LONGER FIT the original owner. Unless there is a special or rare thing like a special paint set, or something that gets used up like a colouring book, we hold as many things in common as possible.

I understand what you’re saying @sharingiscarin

Posters do tend to hone in on specific examples but it’s more a general issue. My DS is 3 and can be like this, a bit dog in the manger. Someone else has something and he wants it. I think all you can do is keep reiterating taking turns.

I'm gonna give advice that some people won't agree with..

Be strict. Let your children know exactly what you want from them and expect them to follow through. Don't worry about her taking turns at nursery. She will navigate her way through that and figure it out one way or another. And if the nursery are happy then another reason not to worry. Tell her she has to share with her brother or else there will be consequences

Haven't rtft. We have the same gap but a year on, I'd say they both "got" sharing by 4 but that doesn't mean they're good at it!

We have a few special toys each that they don't have to share and then everything else is "we share toys in this house".

I think expecting them to share because it's kind is a bit much at this age, I'd have it more as a rule for now. We used a lot of timers. "ok dd1, dd2 is playing with that now but I'll set a 2 minute timer and then it will be your turn". Snatching is never rewarded with getting the thing.

Why does she have to give her bike to her bother when he has his own bike?

Mine are similar ages and your DD's behaviour sounds pretty normal to me. I don't like the idea of a "report" from nursery that's a series of tickboxes either, so if you're feeling worried perhaps have a chat with them about whether her report means they actually have concerns about her development and if so, what they suggest you and they do to support her.

I agree that timers can work well and my DS1's nursery use these with the 3 and 4 year olds - so Child A gets 5 minutes with a certain toy and then Child B does. They use oversized sand timers which are good because the children can understand visually how long until their turn/how long they have left. I wouldn't expect a 2 year old to get this though (unless nearly 3 I guess?) so for the 2 year old it would be about redirection.

Since about September (when he was 3.9) my DS1 has been really interested in board games like snakes and ladders and the Orchard games, and these seem to have helped him with the concept of taking turns as well. Again though these go right over DS2's head. We like to play them while DS2 is napping.

You're right, she shouldn't have to.

But she also wants to use her brother's car whenever she wants.

If they each have a bike then they each use their own bikes. She shouldn't be made to let him use hers.

We have a "wait your turn" approach for shared toys. If dd is playing with something, and ds wants it, then he has to find something else to play with until she's finished playing with it.