Newborn around smoking friend

[Overthebow]

A friend who smokes came round today, he didn’t smoke in the house but could strongly smell cigarettes on him and he probably had one before he came into the house. I let him hold my baby for a while, and didn’t really think about it until afterwards but now I’m worried my baby will have been affected by this and am worried about sids. Do you think it’s ok and if not is there anything I can do? Aibu to be worried about this?

https://www.lullabytrust.org.uk/safer-sleep-advice/smoking/
Here you go, lullaby trust says 30% of SIDS deaths could be avoided if all mothers avoided smoking during pregnancy, and likely up to 60% if no one smoked around the baby/the baby’s home.
And again, the risk of this one off event is going to be very small compared to the risk to a child living in a home where adults smoke or who were exposed via their mother’s smoking habit during pregnancy.

@TomeTome Sorry but you are wrong he hasn't left the gas he was standing in outside it's on his skin, clothes and hair breath.

Recommendation is smokers should smoke outside with coat on then coat can be removed immediately when inside then to wash hands thoroughly before handling baby if not using a coat to smoke outside they should put clean smoke free clothes on before any contact with a baby.

Recommended by who @Thedogscollar ? (I’m interested not trying to sound fighty)

@TomeTome literally by all the websites mentioned in this thread. I'm not being fighty either I work as a midwife so this is very close to my heart.
The smoke clings to everything as I said previously so if the smoker smokes outside in a coat especially for this purpose at least the baby is not being exposed to the smoke clinging to the top garment they are wearing. All smokers should wash their hands thoroughly before cuddling a baby.
Any NHS website can supply you with comprehensive information on second and third hand smoking around babies.
Their lungs are smaller they breathe more rapidly than an adult their immune system is not fully mature they are at much more risk than an adult.

I got told at an antenatal class that almost every single baby who dies of SIDS has a parent who smokes (usually the mother). So that suggests that being held by a smoker once or twice isn't likely to kill a baby - it's their mother's decision to repeatedly expose them to toxins that kills them. But I suppose the problem is that if several different smokers hold the baby a few times each, it all adds up.

I’ve looked (again) on the nhs website passive smoking and I can’t find anything that says what you are saying. Can you link for me?

One off would be fine I think but obviously not ideal regularly!

Thanks everyone, I definitely feel a lot better and baby seems fine today. It’s not a friend I see regularly and he’s my only friend who smokes so doesn’t seem like it will be a big problem.

@TomeTome Info on 3rd hand smoke
https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/ebiom/PIIS2352-3964(22)00594-1.pdf Discussion of implications on health following a study proving third hand smoke passed through the skin has negative affects on the body.
https://scienceblog.cincinnatichildrens.org/many-children-still-exposed-to-tobacco-smoke-pollution-even-in-smoke-free-homes/
Cincinnati Children’s hospital suggest even living in a home previously occupied by a smoker carries a risk to kids.
https://www.plunket.org.nz/being-a-parent/family-and-whanau/family-life/being-smoke-free-around-your-child/
Plunket is a well respected charity in New Zealand that work to improve health and safety of children under 5. Their recommendations for what breastfeeding mothers who smoke should do are exactly what @Thedogscollar has been explaining about smokers holding babies - wear a coat you remove before touching the baby, wash your hands thoroughly, ideally have leave an hour between smoking and holding the baby close.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/baby/caring-for-a-newborn/reduce-the-risk-of-sudden-infant-death-syndrome/#:~:text=Babies%20exposed%20to%20cigarette%20smoke,your%20baby%20into%20smoky%20places.
NHS clearly states the links between SIDS and smoking and gives this as a reason to avoid your baby being around people who are smoking.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5716630/
Medical Research review paper summarizing all the different studies we have on third hand smoke exposure. We know cigarette residue is carcinogenic and have done since the 1950s. We also know it gets everywhere. Even in places like the NICU where no has ever smoked.

I can't find this statistic anywhere. I'm not condoning smoking at all - it clearly is not good for babies to be around smokers - but 'almost every single baby' simply doesn't seem to be supported as a statistic.

People who don't smoke should still follow the other SIDS advice like feet to foot, nothing in cots etc.

@SnapCrackleandStop thankyou for posting the links re second /third hand smoking.
I have no idea how to include links in a post.

No problem. I just copy the URL from the page I want to link and paste it into the message box when I’m writing a mumsnet post.

Thanks for linking I will have a read. I don’t think anyone was saying “passive smoking” wasn’t a thing, it was more if it was nhs advice to go to the lengths described and what had lead to this idea that parent should require visiting smokers to change their clothes etc etc.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378378207001296
So the full article is behind a paywall but enough is public to get the main points.
So for example, it seems like it used to be that the mother smoked during pregnancy in 50% of SIDS cases but that the number has risen since - to more like 80% whenever the data was collected for this study which was published back in 2007.

This is because safe sleep advice is working. The total number of SIDS deaths has fallen a lot because we’ve identified one of the major contributing factors and people have taken that advice on board. BUT there is a theory that maternal smoking during pregnancy and/or exposure to tabacco after birth mess with a baby’s abilty to regulate their breathing when their C02 levels get too high.

So smoking is a huge contributing factor to SIDS and now that fewer babies are being put down to sleep in riskier position (on their side or tummy), a greater percentage of SIDS deaths are being caused by smoking than in the past.

I used to be paranoid when my one smoker friend held my babies too. I’m sure it will be fine - a one off. One thing that really helped me was a breathing alarm, I had bad paranoia about SIDs as my eldest was a baby around time Anne Diamonds baby died and the whole back to sleep campaign so it used to play on my mind a lot

Definitely have a read about ´third hand smoke’. That seems to be the term that’s most used to describe residue left behind on clothes and surfaces.

I don’t think many of those links actually said that you should do more than smoke outside. There’s one that suggests bfing mothers might cover their clothes/hair when smoking but I’m still not sure a guest smoking before they arrive is a massive risk. This wouldn’t worry me unduly, but I have lived with much more significant risk.

I think........ this once, your baby will be totally fine. But I wouldnt be letting him hold your baby again. Or being in the same room if hes stinky tbh. Smoking is grim in all ways.

How’s this for a study.
Heavy smokers are less likely to believe their child’s dr telling them that Thirdhand smoke is harmful.
https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(12)00523-5/fulltext

It says fathers and smokers are more likely to believe THS isn’t harmful? I’m not sure what point that is making?

You don’t seem to believe that thirdhand smoke is an issue. I don’t understand why it’s so hard to believe. The taking your coat off and washing your hands before holding a baby is just an obvious way to lessen the quantity of thirdhand smoke that a baby will be exposed to.

It always amazes me when people come straight to mumsnet with health questions rather than doing their own research. OP, Google 'thirdhand smoke babies'. You absolutely should not be letting a smoker hold your baby. Make sure you wash the clothes she was wearing before she wears them again.

I was interested in what was a reasonable response to the risk. Lots of posters including one claiming to be an nhs midwife were advocating what to me seem quite extreme levels of concern and subsequent behaviour. There seems to be a lot of extrapolating from one situation and response to another. It’s interesting how these things develop into official advice.
I’m not sure removing outside clothes and washing your hands before handling a newborn is reserved for smokers. Personally I would be more concerned about germs.

I think when you don’t smoke you’re just so much more aware of how smoke residue lingers. It smells really strong. And smell means particules are still present. As a non smoker discussions about the dangers of smoking (and not just to the smoker) are really frustrating because smokers usually have massive denial or cognitive dissonance about the health risks of smoking. It gives you cancer. It ruins your ability to breathe. It can harm the ability to breathe of the children and babies around you which can sometimes be fatal. To be honest I don’t really understand why anyone thinks it’s ok to keep doing it whatsoever.
So to me, asking visiting smokers to take off their coat or change their shirt, wash their hand and not smoke just before they arrive or during the visit is not extreme at all. Extreme would be refusing to see them whatsoever. Making a fuss about the idea of smokers changing their shirt when you’d happily make them do that anyway to reduce transmission of disease is very weird to me.

I not sure it’s “weird” to discuss what drives behaviour or ideas. You seem very het up about the smell of smoke, do you feel the same doubts/worries about the smell of cooking or even strong scent? What about the smell of woodsmoke or engine oil? Feelings come from somewhere and I’m not suggesting you do anything you’re not personally comfortable with but I also think if you present that as accepted medical opinion then you should be able to back that up with facts.