Primary school punishment for doodling

[Doodlemania]

Our primary school is becoming increasingly draconian. It’s true they have some challenging behaviour to deal with of late (not generally characteristic of the school in previous years). Their solution is a red and yellow card warning system in addition to their existing shame-based behaviour system.

My child has a diagnosis of ASD and traditionally reacts negatively to shame based systems so naturally I asked at the outset what allowances would be made for neurodivergent children. I was assured not to worry as he doesn’t have behaviour issues anyway so would he unlikely to get any cards and the head said they would brief the teaching staff accordingly.

The system has been in a week and he has had three warning cards, from three separate teachers. One for doodling in the margin (defacing school property), one for writing his name on his new exercise book whilst the teacher was speaking, and another (deservedly) for chatting. I raised the doodling with the teacher and was given short shrift even though I restarted my child’s SEN diagnosis and the recognised benefits of doodling.

AIBU to think that such a behaviour system is inappropriate in 2024 and especially inappropriate when used to punish children for doodling?

I am worried that my motivated and engaged child will just start hating school altogether.

And there it is. The post that explains what the problem really is. You don't like or trust the teacher. You think it's more likely that the teacher is "arse-covering" than your child didn't hear his teacher telling him not to doodle in his book.

@Pamplem0000u5553 that's very true, have you got any back up for that.

Yeah that’s obviously it.

although most people when faced with two versions of the truth have to try to work out which one feels most likely. I don’t know, but one option is that the child lied (but this one cannot - he is a compulsive truth teller and when he does try and lie he cannot hide it), or the other is that the teacher when asked, very non confrontationally to explain the context realises they have forgotten the child has SEN so embellishes a little. To be honest, initially I thought it more likely that the teacher was right until I casually mentioned to the child that I think possibly the card was for not stopping when asked, but he is adamant he wasn’t asked.

https://www.verywellhealth.com/adhd-stimming-5208900

This makes me so cross. I have a doodler in my class. His asd diagnosis is taking forever but I'm still putting stuff in place to support him. He has a doodle book. It's just a spare exercise book. An easy win for us both.

@Doodlemania
I do let some kids make notes in class, but only if they don't mind me asking them questions every now and then to check they are still listening. I've had children doodle, play with fidgets etc before and then say they didn't know what to do when given the work after I'd spent time teaching it. With 30 kids in the class (some with processing/cognition issues who I will sit with at a table and support as well as ASC, ADHD, Dyslexia, Dyscalculia), I don't have the time to individually teach each child separately again each lesson. In a nutshell: if it's helping the child, no problem, if it's distracting them, then it is.

If doodling helps your DS focus, then that needs to be accommodated and I wouldn't understand why the school would not support it if it helps him achieve and learn as it would be equally in their interest to do so.

Or you could take the nuanced, most likely approach.

Teacher did ask him to stop.
Child didn't hear the teacher.
Child isn't lying.
Teacher isn't lying.

I find that nine times out of ten, no-one is lying. It's called perspective.

I have found that for some children they'd rather doodle than do the lesson at all, especially if it's a tricky concept they are trying to get their head round. They may find it hard to persevere and work through the problem as they are still learning to build resilience when faced with tricky work. I am expected to ensure the children I teach make progress after all so it's a bit of a rallying call sometime, lots of "you've got this, you can do it, don't give up - you're almost there".

Doodling to self regulate and help as a learning aid - fine. To distract/avoid tricky concepts - not fine.

Forcing kids to sit quietly and perfectly still surely is unnatural for all children?

God schools are just awful 😖 no wonder so many kids rebell or get depressed. It's not right!

Many non nd need to doodle or fiddle in order to get thru incredibly dull and boring lessons.

@Pamplem0000u5553 thanks... Unfortunately that doesn't mention colouring or doodling speficically

If that’s the same teacher I know of (he was also the head), he had a lasting impact on at least one of his pupils, and not the ‘thought it was hilarious’ kind. Either that or there are other sadists like that out there - which is perfectly plausible.

(Sorry again OP for the derail. Obviously YANBU.)

Had a similar experience with dd at school, she (also ASD) doodles constantly. School didn't like it because "if dd has a pen in her hand when she should be listening others will want a pen as well" When I pointed out the need for reasonable adjustments so as not to be seen as discriminatory they offered her use of a fidget spinner (they don't work for dd) I got the OT to document the need and got it in the EHCP at the next review and quoted it liberally. It really shouldn't be so difficult. Dd dropped spectacularly out of mainstream because the anxiety the petty rules and threats of sanctions caused became unmanageable. She went then to an independent specialist school where rules were few and nothing was non negotiable and adjustments were the norm.

OP what wqas the point of even raising it with the teacherm when you are yet another deluded parent who believes their little Tarquin is incapable of lying or misbehaving.

My son has an ehcp and on autism pathway. Teacher ripped up his doodling then made him sit doing nothing for the rest of the lesson.

I don't think it's helpful. If they aren't doing what they're supposed to be I think you should look for a reason. That being said, I understand they are human and get fed up just like parents do. He should be doing his work so I get that it's frustrating, but they do treat him like he doesn't need additional help.

Oh that is so sad for little child you 😞

What an adultist world we live in. I wish I could say things have changed but rather than ripping up books/papers teachers now use ‘traffic light’ systems and detentions. Pathetic.

Using one sense supports another sense. So doodling supports listening.

This is why it’s so easy to remember a song. Theres words and music, so two things are combined.

I learnt this in a training day when l was a teacher.

This is at primary school?

My dd and another girl (Y2) 'doodled' on a classroom wall. They were spoken to about making better choices and told to clean it off, which they did. Job done. It was enough to make an impact on dd who knows bloody well this is wrong and she'd never do it at home. She's on a pathway to diagnosis (likely adhd) and has an ehcp, but the teacher responded in a completely appropriate way. This is all that's needed at primary school, calmly and quietly setting them on the right tracks, not a public shaming.

Agreed. We have fought back about this for DSS who has ADHD and needs to doodle or fidget to concentrate! I doodle in long meetings to help me focus.

I don't get why some schools are being insanely heavy handed over trivia but then the violent /hugely disruptive children never get expelled any more

Yes... I don't see what the issue is here?

Or do you think kids needing wheelchairs should be forced to struggle, crawl, drag themselves around and then someone huffs and sighs and makes a HUGE fuss about providing a wheelchair and makes sure everyone knows to look at so and so using their chair the massive drama-llama... why can't they be easy and convenient like everyone else?

Thats what it is like... instead of allowances and accomodations being made as a fuss free matter of course, with zero attention drawn to them, ND kids are both in need of allowances and accomodations, and yet terrified to ask for or use them because it highlights difference and makes them feel even more othered!

I too was the kid who needed to doodle and fiddle in order to concentrate and instead of being permitted that, was made an example of, having everything on my desk confiscated, repeatedly shouted at for it, and then repeatedly shouted at for zoning out once it was all taken away (and by 'all' I mean, pens, paper, eraser etc, the stuff I just needed for the lesson!). At 43, I still need to doodle or fiddle in order to concentrate properly on lectures/seminars or even watching tv sometimes!

I can never work out on these kinds of threads whether the haters genuinely don’t get it, or just enjoy having a go at others. It’s an incredibly ableist world we live in, and if you’re not walking this path you have no idea.

@ilovebreadsauce you will note that in my opening post the headteacher predicted he would not get any cards because he has exemplary behaviour, and also assured me she would brief the teachers to remind them of his SEN. You are incorrect that I think he never misbehaves- he does, having ASD means that he can get things very wrong behaviour wise sometimes, but that is unusual in school and if it does happen then break/unstructured time is much more likely. It’s more common in clubs and activities.

I am certainly not a parent who wants little Tarquins to get away with being badly behaved. At home he can be incredibly challenging so I have a good idea of his capability to cause mayhem. That said, I do expect school to provide an environment conducive to success, for all children, and for neurodivergent kids that means taking an approach that is not going to cause them to spiral or to get hung up on the discipline structure over the lesson content.

essentially, I’m frustrated because we have a child who was thriving in lessons and now is at risk of becoming distracted and unfocused because they have made a change that is not appropriate for some neurodivergent kids - my initial question to school was actually about the entire ND population and not my specific child.

Quite honestly, I'm amazed that a child would receive a sanction for doodling, whether they have ADHD or not. Draconian is the right word.
I would absolutely take this up with school OP.