I don't want to join the biggest family gathering of the year...

[kiaraluna]

I'm from an Asian family in Hong Kong, and like many Asian families, relationships are dysfunctional and toxic. Last Sunday, my father sent over two photos of my brother's tax department letters, one urging him to pay a HKD$55,000 tax (around $5,500 GBP) which was due last month, the other one was a subpoena requiring him to go to court for not filing tax in 2022.

My father then called me, telling me how upset and worried he was that my brother seemed to get into big trouble. My brother was on vacation with his girlfriend in Japan, and my father opened his letters without his consent. He said that he thought something was wrong when he received two letters from the tax department in a row, which made him so upset and worried that he couldn't sleep for nights. And so, he "had no choice" but to open the letters to see what's going on - only to make himself even more upset and worried after knowing what's going on.

He asked me to pay the tax for my brother immediately since he's still in Japan. These things happened before and I was thinking “not again please”… I tried to reason with my father and said that we should tell my brother and ask him to pay immediately because he can pay tax online, it’s not a problem that he’s in Japan now. But like always, he was just making up excuses not to confront my brother, and he seriously asked me not to let my brother know. He wanted to avoid any direct confrontation with my brother as he's extremely afraid of upsetting him. That's why he always turned to me for things like this. He’s not calling my elder sister because she's a mum now, and he thought she had more important things to do and worry about, while I don't.

He said that he didn't want to ruin my brother's vacation with this bad news (but obviously he thought it’s ok ruin my Sunday?), and so he insisted that I should help my brother pay the tax without telling him. He also has already assumed my brother didn't have the money (due to my brother’s previous debt records), and so he's actually asking me to absorb the debt while "knowing" my brother won't be able to pay me back.

I couldn't find one reason why I should do that. I have the money, but I’m not paying even if it's only $50, because it's not my responsibility and my brother is a 35-year-old grown adult. Having to pay $5,500 tax also means he's making a decent income. But my father started to emotionally blackmail me by repeating how upset he was that he's not been eating and sleeping for days, he said he couldn't let his son go to jail and asked me what to do and if we need to hire a lawyer... he's asking all the questions that I couldn't possibly answer, because I had no idea what that subpoena was all about unless we asked my brother. And he said that as siblings I should help my brother no matter what (subtext: I should solve all the problems so that he doesn’t need to be upset and worried about anything anymore).

The fact is, 10 years ago my sister and I had helped my brother repay a huge sum of $30,000+ GBP bank loans and credit card debts, which he then slowly repaid to us over 5+ years. My father didn't know about it, because it would give him heart attack if we told him, and he would only panic and make things worse. After my brother repaid that debt, there were still a few more times when we found out he's in debt again (a much smaller amount of money fortunately). The reason we found out was because my father opened my brother's letters without his consent over and over again, even though we had told him a million times not to.

So, what my father was doing last Sunday, he had done a several times before. Every time, he just emotional blackmailed and guilt-tripped me into helping my brother. Then my brother would eventually know about it and get furious about us reading his bank letters and not trusting him. Even though at last he didn’t really need our help, every time it just created so much tension within my family. And the emotional dumping and blackmail from my father, the recounting of past traumatic experience (that $30,000 debt), and worrying about my brother getting into trouble again, were already big enough to drag me down emotionally.

So this time it's the same all over again. I went into shut down mode pretty soon and I didn't want to continue the conversation with my father, and so I asked him to hang up so that I could talk with my sister about this first. But then he lost his temper and yelled at me saying there's no need and no time to talk with my sister, and requested me to act immediately like it’s my fault or obligation. I was triggered and started yelling at him too, telling him that I would pay the tax (I actually won't, but I said that only because he wouldn't give up if I didn't) and he didn't have to do anything to make things worse.

I knew the only rational thing to do was to tell my brother and let him solve his problem on his own. But at that time, my father's emotional blackmail, shaming and guilt-tripping had consumed me and I couldn't function. I could only call my sister telling her what's going on, and I almost cried while talking to her. I think it's partly because I'm sort of a hypersensitive person, or what people called empath now. I tend to internalise people's emotions, and I easily feel responsible for everybody's problems. And this kind of things, especially when it’s coming from my parents, has always been very overwhelming to me because I don’t feel like I could say no. I take whatever they dump on me even though I know that they're not mine to carry.

My sister and I then talked to my brother about it, and he quickly replied that it's not a big deal and that he had already paid the tax, which we couldn’t truly believe due to past history. But he’s in defense mode, and he asked me to tell father not to bother about it - which immediately sent me to an emotional breakdown… cos since when have I become the messenger between you two? Why can’t you two, father and son, talk to each other on difficult matters like grown adults? Would father stop worrying and stop all the emotional blackmailing just after I told him "not to bother about it"? He won't! He’s the way he is because he likes to bother and make a fuss about everything. He cannot be reasoned with. He would probably also blame and scold me for telling my brother. Why do I have to take the hit for everyone?

I told my siblings that I couldn't do this it anymore. I couldn't be the scapegoat who receives all the emotional blackmails from my father anymore. Hearing what I said, my brother became very angry about it, and immediately started sending messages on our family chat group. But before I even started to read what he's saying, my father's already calling me. He blamed me for telling my brother and for making my brother getting angry at him… For the first time in my life, I said, "I couldn't do this anymore," and hung up on my father.

My brother said on the chat group that he's already paid the tax and asked my father not to bother me about his problems. He also said, "I'm already very upset because my dog just died, please don't be crazy and make a fuss about small matters!" My father then replied, "I'm also very upset these days, worrying that you're getting into trouble..." Reading these, I just felt so sick and I wondered - does feeling upset give you the license to do whatever you want, and be excused for whatever you do?

I’ve been going through IVF treatments for the past 6 months, still recovering from a recent miscarriage, enduring all the mental and physical pains on my own... I’ve been feeling upset and in pain for some times now, but does it mean that I have the license to hurt and traumatise other people? I'm not asking for help and support from my family whatsoever, because my husband and I prefer not to tell anyone about it. And to be honest, my family has never been a support system for me, I've been solving all my problems on my own since a very young age... I still put a smile on my face on family gatherings. I held back my tears when my mum tried to convince me to have a baby and asked me why I didn't try harder, just right after I had lost one... I didn't tell anyone how much I hurt. I try not to make anyone worry about me... But what do I get in return?

I finally told my siblings that I have recently had a miscarriage, but still, I won't make it my “license to kill” - I don't think that being upset is a reason to do whatever you want, make excuse for yourself, and to emotionally blackmail people to excuse your bad behaviour. Although they then seemed to resolve the matter, with my father saying that we should have open and honest discussion as a family about all matters from now on (though I doubt if he really can do it), I just don't feel like talking to any of them. I felt inexplicably hurt and traumatised... I had an emotional breakdown, bursting into tears for a few times that day... not knowing exactly why.

No matter how much I know about setting boundaries and all that psychological knowledge, I still felt enormously hurt even I know I had done nothing wrong to say no and step out of the family shitshow. I’m still very upset even though the problem has seemed to be solved, because while they seemed to have worked it out with just a few words, a few whatsapp messages, and then they acted like nothing had happened now, they don’t seem to understand how traumatic it’s for me to be the family scapegoat all these years. No apology, no nothing, no one asking if I was okay, just nothing. We're about to have a family gathering to celebrate Lunar New Year, which is the biggest and the most important days in a year to spend with family. I looked forward to it, but it makes me feel bad that I don't now…

I probably have to go to the new year gathering.
Actually there are two important dinners we spend with family during Chinese New Year, one is on the new year eve, and another one on one of the new year days...

I was supposed to have the new year eve dinner with them tmr night, but I just told them I'm not going. I just can't. I don't mean to make it an excuse, but it's true that my emotion is not that stable after the miscarriage. I find myself cry more easily and often, even when there's no trigger... like I can be riding the bus thinking about absolutely nothing but tears would suddenly drop... I have actually got much much better over the past couple of months, but after what happened on Sunday, the situation kind of relapsed. I don't want to cry suddenly in front of everybody..

I'll take some time and hopefully I will get better next week for the other dinner.

Exactly... if he has money to go on vacation, he should have money to pay his bills. And if he doesn't pay on time, and doesn't file for tax the year before, it's his responsibility to bear. What's the most ridiculous is that my father, like always, never talks to my brother directly and asks him what's going on, but instead asks me what's going on, forces me to give him answers that he wants to hear, while also forbidding me from asking my brother so that we can all know what REALLY is going on.

He's always catastrophising things, and drags me into the hell which he creates and makes me burn with him. Only if he asked my brother about the overdue tax, he would have found out that my brother was actually able to pay, and it's not like what he thought (and what he tried to make me believe) that my brother's in debt again. Cos my brother did pay the tax immediately and sent us proof of payment (perhaps he just simply forgot). So all those worries and dramas were all so unnecessary. Then, he's finally happy and he even told my brother to enjoy his vacation, while he didn't think that he owed me an apology or maybe to promise that he'll never do this to me again. Like everybody's fine now, like nothing's happened, but I'm still burning in his hell, and everyone just forgot about me with no one trying to pull me up.

Like you said, next time (I hope there won't be a next time) I would just not pick up his call. Just don't give him the access and chance to start all the drama.

I do have a vacation plan with my husband after the Chinese New Year. I've also been thinking about lying to my family, saying that I bring forward the travel date, so that I can skip the new year dinner. I don't know. But it's my niece's 6-year-old birthday too... Anyway... I'll see if I'm feeling better next week.

And thanks for reading and your comment!

Not all asians are like OP's dad expecting daughter's to bail out the son.

@ReinNotReignItIn @ZombiesAreClammyDodgers
Thanks for speaking up for me against that comment. And definitely thank you for your patience in reading my long post❤

You got it. Man Child that is. And in this case, my father is that ultimate Man Child.

He doesn't only expect me to solve my brother's problems (most of which are problem he imagined and created), but also all his, with all his pity-baiting and manipulation tactics, while he doesn't give a shit how it would adversely affect everybody. He just wants care and attention.

Like just a few months ago, he told us that he had retinal detachment and the doctor arranged him to have a laser surgery a month later. I was worried and also baffled because retinal detachment is something quite serious and urgent, and there's no way he could still wait for a month to fix it, it'd be too late. I found it strange that the doctor would make such arrangement and so I did some research and found that the surgery for retinal detachment is not simply laser but a more complicated one, and it's more likely that what he actually had was retinal tear, which in some case can be self healed, and if not, a simple laser treatment can fix. So I told him the difference between the two, and that's when he said he had retinal tear but not detachment, which he knew from the start. He told us it's retinal detachment just for exaggeration and to make us worried about him more than necessary. I almost thought I had to pay around HK$100,000 so that he could have a retinal detachment surgery at private doctor asap, only to find out later that he freaking lied about his situation.

My father is the kind of person who always refuses to see private doctors even for some urgent sickness because he thinks it's a waste of money, and he'd rather wait for years for treatments at government clinics. But in some cases, some illness can be worsen quickly over 1 or 2 years of time, and by that time you may still have to pay much more money to cure it even in government hospitals. It'd be cheaper and better for everyone if he let us take him to the private doctors asap. But no matter how hard we try to convince him, he would still refuse and start to throw tantrums at us for worrying about him. But at the same time, while he's indefinitely waiting for treatments, he would make sure to let you know that he's in pain and suffering. Then you just got stuck in a position where you have the ways to help him but you can't because he won't let you, and you have to suffer with him. He's not happy if you don't worry about him, but also throw tantrums at you for worrying.

So it's not just what happened on Sunday that make me suffer, but many other things that happens on a daily basis over and over again. "He keeps dragging you to hell and makes you burn with him" is not an exaggeration, this is literally what I feel.

You're very right about "try and become more emotionally self sufficient so that this sort of behaviour loses the ability to hurt you". I know this is the only way out. But it's extremely difficult for me to achieve that. I'm slowly learning and I hope I'm slowly making progress, at least now that I'm able to identify his manipulation tactics... I mean rationally I know exactly what's going on and what he's trying to do and achieve through his behaviour, but emotionally I'm still not strong enough to shield all that away.

Read the first post on that thread, so spot on.
I know no one's born to know how to be a parent, but after being a parent for almost 40 years just to become a worse one...? There's no excuse for that. I don't expect a 80-year-old man to change. I can't expect that, right? But at least, as the later generations, we can learn and educate ourselves to be better parents - which hopefully, I hope I'd able to become one very soon.

I will take some time to read through the thread, thank you so much!

Why the fuck did you bother to reply then? Close the thread and go on your merry way then. No one gives a damn that you have the attention span of a gnat and couldn't make it through the post.

Your post was the biggest waste of words on the whole thread though.

With manipulative people I think it best to address their manipulative tactic:

Are you wanting me to feel guilty.
Are you wanting me to feel obligated.
Are you wanting me to feel sorry for you.
That's gaslighting.
That's projection ..

If they play dumb - give them a definition. Don't get into the details of the story. Stay calm and let your yes be yes and your no be no. Stand your ground - good luck!

Op, you may not feel strong enough to take a hard line with a firm boundary yet, but over time your strength will grow.

But, just like the toddler he acts like, your Father's tantrums will likely increase before they get better. Because he's learned that the tantrums get him what he wants, so when they suddenly stop working he will up the tantrums.

You need to cut off the oxygen supply. Throw a tantrum? I'm hanging up now.

Blow up my phone with messages? I will be blocking you for 24 hours until you regain your perspective.

Have you called me to ask how I am or to just ask me to run around and fix someone else's problems? If it's to fix someone else's problems then I will be hanging up now, and when you decide you are interested in ME and not what you can get me to do for others, you can call me back.

Etc, etc.

for you, it's ever so hard. Please be strong for yourself and your future new family.

Space can be a real healer. Create space between you and the men, see them less often and for much shorter periods of time. Opt out of some social events with a fake headache or sickness bug.

Don't engage in money talks as a hard and fast rule. State this one thing on the family WhatsApp today and when ever you are asked for money ‘I don’t have the cash’ but refuse to go into detail about your own finances. Be silent.

If your dad or brother rants on the phone or WhatsApp just mute the messages and stop reading or mute the call and put the phone in your bag and carry on shopping or watching telly. Be uncontactable and silent. Fake flu if you need an excuse.

Chinese New Year family gatherings are tricky... like the other commentor said you just "can't not go" simple because you don't want to... It's not a good enough reason for mum and dad.

I already told my sister that I'm not going to the Chinese New Year Eve "reunion dinner" tonight at her place. She understands it because I told her about my miscarriage on Sunday, and I know she'll help stop mum and dad from bugging me for that. (Yea, my sister is someone I can rely on in my family. I know she cares about me but she's already very busy with her job, her young daughter, her duties at church... and I'm an adult and I can't rely on her to support me all the time). But for the other gathering on New Year Day, which is also my niece's birthday, it's hard to find a reason to skip again. I think I will toughen up and be there, but solely for my niece.

No one knows about my IVF treatments, not even my sister. And we don't normally announce pregnancy until after 12w (I think it's the same for many western people too), and so my parents know nothing about my last pregnancy and the miscarriage, not to say IVF. I still prefer not to tell them about it. Believe me, things could get even worse and more stressful for me if they knew. So, I can't use this as a reason to skip family gatherings.

"Your father may well react badly to your boundaries. Maybe you should consider why that matters? It’s not your job to protect your father from being displeased. It’s your job to take care of yourself." - omg, thanks for saying that! Yes, why does that matter! He won't respect anyone's boundaries even if they're as clear and high and solid as the Great Wall in China. So why should I still bother about setting boundaries with him.

Actually 2 or 3 years ago when I just started to learn about boundaries, and I tried to make a long-time friend know about how unhealthy our friendship had been because she never respected me while I had no boundaries before, and I told her how her behaviours had hurt me and that I wanted those behaviours to stop and we can work together to build a healthier relationship. She reacted badly to my boundaries, and ended up saying and doing things to hurt me more. I had since ended that friendship. Yea... I've actually been there before. I should've known. People like them, they're extremely toxic and self-absorbed. They will never admit any wrong because they think they're always right. And they don't think you deserved to have boundaries or be respected, if they have to compromise their superiority and special treatments. They don't care about how you feel whatsoever, and so they don't think hurting you is a problem as long as they can get what they want from it.

I knew, I knew all that. How come I never learned! But then of course, I can cut toxic friends off, but he's my dad. But certainly, I can put my needs first instead of his.

I will have a vacation with my husband after the Chinese New Year. I will focus on my wellbeing and my coming IVF treatments. Thank you very much indeed!

Well if no-one told your brother, then how would we know that he'd already paid it?! It was lucky that you all spoke to him about it. Otherwise you may have paid it too! Seems ridiculous not to talk about it, openly. I personally would not have paid it for me, nor offered to. When your father emotionally blackmails you, you should end the call every time. Sounds like your brother will always have financial problems, as he's that way inclined.

In basic terms you need to practice the art of hanging up. The first hint of abuse - because that's what your family are doing to you - is hang up. Every time.
Good luck with your ivf.

That's how ridiculous it is... And that's the kind of "hell" I said my dad likes to drag me into. In his hell, you know what's the best way to solve the problem but he won't let you do it, but he force you to do it his way which doesn't really solve any problem, if you don't do things his way he would blame and shame and insult you, with him involved you will only end up not solving any problem but creating new ones... There's no way out, and that's the inferno where he wants you to burn eternally with him.

Of course I wasn't going to pay for my brother, but then my dad would make it sound like I was the bad guy who doesn't look out for my family. Engaging in conversation with him only drags me deeper into his hell, and so yes, now I know hanging up on him is the only way out. I never did that before. So this time when he called me the second time just to blame me for telling and making my brother get angry at him, I knew that's it, I knew I didn't deserve all that. That was the first time in my life I hung up on him (or anyone except telemarketers and scammers). That's actually quite liberating but it also means I don't have any respect left for him just like I don't have for telemarketers and scammers. That's sad. But it was he who made my brother angry because he opened his letters. He knew it's wrong for him to read my brother's letter, that's one of the reasons he didn't let me tell my brother. He knew exactly what he has done. He can't just keep making everything my fault and making me take accountability for his bad behaviours.

Thanks, I never thought about it. I think it really is the best way, to let them know that not everyone is interested in playing their mind games. But with my father, I think he probably doesn't know or think that what he does is manipulation, and I probably can't make him understand. But I'm really done communicating with him. He can do whatever he wants to do, I just won't engage anymore.

I hope counselling here is as affordable or covered by insurance as in some other countries... All I can do now is to read more and educate myself about manipulative behaviours so that I won't be affected by them as much. Learning not to react is still a big lesson I have to learn right now. And I'm the kind of person who keeps reliving past trauma or embarrassing memories. I think I have to learn to forgive myself so that I can let go of the past and move on...

Interesting enough, I really was showing some covid symptoms in the past few days and thought I would skip the family gathering, but then I got better and I was only having a common cold. And I thought I already skipped the New Year Eve dinner, and I really wanted to see my niece for her birthday, so I went to the New Year dinner, which was tonight.

I think all of us tried our very best to be happy and to have a good time, especially when there's a little kid there and it's her 6-year-old birthday, the gathering should be a happy event, and so we just put aside all the negativity and to be in the moment and enjoy it. But guess what, my father wasn't even trying...

First, he was late (he came by himself because my mum was with my sister's family the whole day at the amusement park). He was never late. He was always the first one who arrived to get a table at the restaurant which he chose, but this time, he just acted completely different. He didn't choose the restaurant, he was late and he wasn't telling us his whereabouts or about what time he'd be arriving. Perhaps I'm overthinking it, but I think he was trying to make us wonder or worry about what's wrong.

Then, after he arrived, he just kept pulling a long face, not saying a word, not eating anything, even though my mum and brother kept asking what he wanted to eat and kept passing food to him... It felt so odd that he acted like that on our New Year dinner, which should be a happy celebration. I guess he thought someone would ask him what's wrong, but none of us really did (I mean, my siblings and I were fully aware of that but apparently we all chose to ignore it). A while later, my mother, who sat next to him and was terrified by him, finally asked him what's wrong, and then he said his eye couldn't see.

I didn't really know what he meant, and I couldn't even tell if he's telling the truth or just exaggerating like he always does (like what I mentioned, one time he told us he had retinal detachment when it's actually retinal tear). I don't know if his eye got problem again after having a laser treatment just two months ago, or if it's the other eye having some other new problems. And I don't even know if I should worry and care about him like before, because I don't want to end up find out he's exaggerating things and taking advantage of your compassion. I know as the daughter I should care about his health condition, but I just couldn't do it now... I left it to my sister and brother this time, but they weren't asking about his eye neither. We all chose to ignore it. Then he just spent the whole night pulling a long face, not talking and not eating.

I didn't want to react also but it reminded me of my wedding day 3 years ago, when he pulled a long face and refused to smile even when we're taking family photos. The photographer couldn't get one nice photo because he looked angry in all of them. He'd rather sit by himself at the corner, played with his phone and refused to join us when we're having some traditional wedding rituals which involved parents giving blessings to their soon to be wedded child. He also kept finding flaws or things to grumble to me, when I was so busy with all the things I had to do as the bride. That lasted for most of the day during my wedding ceremony and all photo sessions, until later that night after his brother's (my 5th uncle's) family arrived for our banquet, that he's finally back to normal, started smiling and stopped grumbling. That's when I realised he acted that way because he's upset that most of the relatives from his side, who lived in Guangzhou (another Chinese city, around 3 hours by car from HK), couldn't come to my wedding due to the large scale social unrest in HK. He's only happy when his side of relatives were there, so that he could be the "big boss", bossing everyone around because he's the big brother and everyone (is forced to) listen to him.

But little did he know that how he behaved most of the day had made me so upset because I had no idea why my father wasn't happy for me on one of the most important days of my life, which was a once-in-a-lifetime event.. we couldn't redo it... He also didn't understand how much stress, difficulties and disappointments I had to overcome when I was the one organising the whole wedding amidst the social unrest when there're so many uncertainties (many weddings were forced to call off with no refunds from vendors, or ended up having no guests coming because of all the protests and tear gases and violence that year). I did all the hard parts and carried all the stress and I still had to smile through it, while he only had to do one thing - be happy for me - but still, he couldn't. He had actually ruined my big day purely because of his immaturity, because he couldn't even put his ego and needs and emotions aside for a moment, just to be happy for me, when it was actually my day, not his.

So, tonight, I just thought that he's doing this again. He had to ruin everyone's day and make everyone miserable, only because he's not happy for god knows why. Or maybe it's because he knew he's the one in the wrong and he knew I was mad at him (I hung up on him the other day), so he had to pity bait for my care and forgiveness. I don't know. But I went to the dinner tonight because I still want to love and feel the love within my family, not to be dragged down by negative emotions or emotionally blackmailed again.

Please tell me, if I'm only overthinking it, or it indeed is his behavioural pattern. I honestly couldn't forgive him for what he did on Sunday, for what he did on my wedding, and for all other similar things he does that just seem to repeat again and again...