To think you don't quite realise how badly the NHS is suffering until you witness it first hand

[DaisyCat33]

My parents are sitting in A&E today. They've just hit 12 hours. My dad was sent there by his GP for severe neck pain this morning. He's had morphine and an MRI scan, but they're now endlessly waiting to see a Dr about results. He hasn't even got a bed to lay on, despite debilitating neck pain. Many people are standing or sitting on the floor.

The couple sitting next to them have been there since 3am, for difficultly breathing.

I'm shocked. Honestly I knew the NHS had it's issues, but this bad?! It's frightening. I also had an email the other day saying my NHS dentist is closing, and it's basically a "well sorry no dentist for you any more, bye bye"

I don't really know the point of this thread really, I just feel shocked and upset that this is how it is. And I think a lot of people don't even realise? My parents definitely didn't until today. They are losing the will to live sat in that hospital.

Does anyone else just feel utterly helpless and anxious about this?

"These countries operate a mainly tax payer funded model (as we do) with employer and employee ins top ups."

I'm in a continental system and, apart from optional extra private insurance, employers generally have nothing to do with it.

I pay for the good health care here via

1. tax (as you mention)
2. payments to non-profit insurance organisation
3. payments from my pocket for each consultation/procedure etc. In some cases, this can be very little and there are options without point 3 for people on very low incomes.

It's still not a perfect system. We have plenty of GPs and you can choose the one you want, but there is waiting time for specialists, particularly the good ones because you have an element of choice in who you see.

Sudden or severe neck pain can be a sign of a heart attack.

The answer, shown by research, is to set up a system that accepts that being lonely or worried are legitimate problems that need help. So, no matter what a person turns up with, you help them, by providing them with reassurance, or a place to go to find company, or some counselling to help them deal with their health anxiety. Research shows over and over that if you remove the focus on specific 'legitimate' health problems and stop treating certain people as time wasters, you stop repeat visits to A and E and you have a significantly healthier population.

Again, not rocket science.

Looking at Loveesslily 10:08 and Iwasafool 10:10 shows the stark contrast and why it's so difficult to form an overall view.

@Lovelesslily I'm so sorry to read of that horrendous experience. Your poor father! If you can, document it and complain.

I believe that the idea of 100% free healthcare is ludicrous in this day and age. I pay approximately €160 from my entire family per year to cover our conventional healthcare needs. this is built quarterly by our insurer. when we go to the GP, it cost €4. ER services are free. Any referrals to specialists to your GP will likely be free. Dental coverage includes two cleanings per year at basically no charge. Other services are covered to varying degrees with additional co-pays, but we have found all of them to be very reasonable. just like in the UK if you are unable to pay or you have a condition which limits your ability to pay you would not be required to do so. When I had my surgery for my foot, I could not work for eight weeks, and even though I am self-employed, I received a paycheck during that time from the government . This is part of my healthcare insurance. In short the amount that we have paid over the course of our time in Belgium has definitely been covered by the amount that the government paid plus much more for our healthcare . we also choose to carry additional hospitalisation insurance which is provided for free for my husband via his job. it’s approximately €150 per year for myself and my daughter. However, this insurance is not required for any Belgians. all it means is that if I want slightly more private care when I go into hospital, it will cost nothing for a private room. if you’re wondering about my surgeries, I paid nothing for my emergency appendicitis. In addition, all of the costs for my foot surgery total to about €250. This includes multiple consultations with the specialist surgeon, the surgery itself, aftercare and they stay in hospital. healthcare is not only about cost but also about accessibility. In Belgium once you were referred to a specialist you are free to choose that specialist and to choose when you can make an appointment. It is not done in the archaic way that the UK does it where you receive letters and have no say in the matter, it has really opened my eyes to what healthcare can be to live here.

Why wouldn’t they give a 95 year old physio. Much better to get her back on her feet, as such, rather than be unable to function and ending up in hospital or a care home. Or are you thinking you should just let her rot in bed and die?

Honestly, some people have no idea of the knock on effect of minor injuries and accidents if the patient isn’t treated at an early stage. The cost can be enormous. Early intervention is crucial.

I would be grateful for a pointer to that research, please. (I've no idea if the help has to come from HCPs or supervised volunteers etc.)

There was a great study done a few years back - I'll try to dig out the report.

If they didn’t have to spend so much time treating drunks, junkies and smokers for self inflicted illness it might be better. Sadly there are too many wasters never contributed at all to the nhs but happy to bleed it dry.

"The problem is people using A and E when they could go to a pharmacy or wait for a GP appointment."

I disagree with this. I keep reading this 'ask your pharmacist' advice, but they have NEVER been able to answer a question I had when the GP's instructions weren't clear. They won't take that responsibility. You also don't have privacy in most pharmacies.

Waiting for a GP appointment could take weeks or months. Some even insist on virtual or phone appointments, which is not appropriate so I can see how people end up at A&E.

I also don't know what Monster Munch has to do with anything. If you're not likely to need an emergency operation, why can't you have a snack while waiting at A&E? Similarly, if someone has an 11-hour wait, I can understand a smoking addict wanting a fag.

What about people who go skiing? A very high-risk sport? And all the other sport injuries? People who walk around when tired and fall down the stairs? Women who fall because they wear high heels? Where do you draw the line at 'self-inflicted'? We must treat all patients equally.

Other countries also have junkies and drunks, but their health systems can cope...

I work for NHS and I can identify with many of these scenarios .This is the reason why I handed in my notice today !

We need to stop the "gatekeeping" role of GPs and open up "minor" services for direct patient self-referral.

We do it with NHS funded dentists and opticians and pharmacists, who all provide NHS treatment direct to the patient without GP involvement.

It's madness that people still need a GP referral (necessitating at least one, potentially more appointments) to get referred to NHS hearing services, or NHS physiotherapy or NHS podiatry.

I had a delay of six months before getting a referral for NHS hearing aids, first to get a GP appointment, then a nurse appointment to check my ears for wax, then they forgot to do the referral, so I had to get another GP appointment and another nurse appointment to check my ears for wax again, and then they finally made the referral and I was in the audiology dept within 2 weeks of the referral in the end.

Similar fiasco with son who had a bad ingrown toe nail. GP appointment first by phone (useless of course), as he wanted to see it, so that was another appointment, then suggested antiseptic cream and salt bath (given the state of the toe it was clear it was beyond simple things like that as I've had them myself necessitating to the toe nail removal), then it got infected, so GP appointment for antiobiotics, then another GP appointment as it was just getting worse, and finally a referral to podiatry, again, within 2 weeks it was removed.

In both cases, the delay was all about the GP, multiple appointments, etc. In both cases, a direct referral was blindingly obvious, i.e. hearing aid needed is obviously an audiology issue and a bad ingrown toe nail is podiatry. Months of waiting and multiple GP appointments could have been avoided had we been able to self-refer to the obvious department!

Hope your dad is okay. The NHS is in a sorry state. I have a lot of friends who work in it and their working days sound like hell. It is operating at dangerous levels. Unfortunately our current government do not value public services and therefore nothing will ever improve for as long as they are in power.

@PastIsAnotherCountry this is a rather oddly-structured report from Wales - it has no date on it so it's not the best in terms of evidence but it does reflect what's normally found when these interventions are implemented:

" In Belgium once you were referred to a specialist you are free to choose that specialist and to choose when you can make an appointment."

I'm laughing at this having waited 3 months to see a surgeon recently in Belgium. It's true that I could have gone to someone else rather than the one recommended by the initial doctor, but there are often waits for specialists even in Belgium.
My next appointment is in a couple of weeks though.

"pharmacists have private rooms for consultations"

Only the large ones.

M LDH had a cardiac arrest on 10th Jan. The ambulance was at our house in 4 minutes. He was resuscitated and taken to hospital and operated on. By the time he died 18 days later everything possible had been done to revive him (DD's uncle and cousin are both doctors, so we were well-informed on what could be done and its consequences). Nurses, doctors, paramedics, housekeepers all kind and caring. We were put into a side ward once it was obvious waking up was not an option, and stayed day and night until a hospice was arranged - 150 miles away as we were in Lancashire but live in Leicester - and DH was transported at NHS cost, all consequences being told us i.e. that he might die on the way.

Yes, the NHS is in crisis. This has been engineered by a government that wants everything to be done for profit, even healthcare.

I don't feel helpless and anxious, I feel furious beyond belief. The NHS is a failure on every single level. I don't think YABU to think people don't realise how bad it is unless they have directly experienced it, but that's purely because they've been constantly brainwashed into thinking it's a brilliant service, so much better than anywhere else etc., etc. I want to scream from the rooftops and pay skywriters and take over every tv channel to tell people how it really is.

I remember the case of a young man with diabetes, he reached a certain age and was no longer covered by his parents insurance. He couldn't afford it, he couldn't afford enough insulin. He died. It was in the news just a few years ago.

Give me the NHS with all its failings anyday.