To think that family members removing possessions from my nan's house when she's still alive is not right?

[Vulturelike]

Nan has an informal dx of dementia via the nursing home she is in, but has not been formally assessed. She is not orientated to time or place and thinks dead relatives are alive. She does not have capacity to make decisions about her own possessions due to an inability to understand, weigh up and retain information about such decisions.

Two of her sons have POA. A third son is excluded as he has major drug and social problems.

One son has the house keys and has been inviting the grandchildren to come and scavenge the house for any desired possessions, prior to house clearance and sale. His own daughters have been the main beneficiaries as he allows them unfettered access via his key. Jewellery has been removed by them, and in one example a grandchild found £20 in a coat pocket and took it home to spend on baby formula.

I am feeling very uncomfortable about this occurring whilst she is still alive. I feel all valuable assets not mentioned in the will ought to be sold and the money put into her care needs.

Worth noting that only the drug addict son is of any financial need. The grandchildren and other siblings are extremely comfortable. The one that took money for baby formula owns their own home, has a partner with a good income, and has their needs met by their parents. They didn't take the £20 out of desperation.

AIBU to think it is wrong for people to be taking random items?

I think this counts as "gifting" from the POA and should be strictly limited.

What do you think the best way of clearing the house is?

We did similar for my gran. Some items were boxed up. Others were just left and we could take which ever of these we wanted to keep. I kept mine in a box with photos. Other things like saucepans it just made sense for someone to use.

Then everything else could be charity shopped.

Jewellery and ornaments etc was in the box to keep for her.

This.

It also helped us come to terms with the fact we were entering the end stage of her life.

It is theft. They are taking without the owners permission, whether the person being stolen from has dementia or not.
Thexfact they have POA is concerning. This does not kick-in until capacity is completely gone
I would be informing the police and the office of the public guardian as they are not adhering to poa

They are stealing

People are like that. My cousins hadn’t even spoken to their dad in about 15 years and when he died unexpectedly, they turned up at his villa and stripped the place bare. Due to the rules of the country (not U.K.) the villa automatically went to my male cousin but the two girls got £££ instead from his savings and investments.

@Rosscameasdoody You soundxas if you've been through the whole POA (LPA)...join the club

A lasting power of attorney can be used before capacity is lost, but this is an instruction which the donor has to give, and it’s contained in the LPA itself so is easy to check. Either way, they should be involving her in every decision as far as possible. Without a proper diagnosis they are only assuming she has lost capacity and they’re breaking the terms of the LPA. Every decision the attorneys make has to be in the best interests of the person for whom they are acting, and they are not allowed to profit from the person. Helping themselves to jewellery and other valuables which could be used to pay care home fees isn’t in her best interests. There is no facility for an LPA to specify who gets what from personal possessions - that’s the function of any Will she may have made, and an LPA doesn’t give an attorney the right to access or act on that Will before the person has passed.

My sister had POA for my mother and she did the exact same thing. Having POA is a huge PITA (why I didn't want it despite being her carer), and the house will need to be sold quickly, whether the council are on their heels (as was our case) or the fees are being paid privately.

When someone is not oriented to time and place, their capacity is really limited - they are making decisions in a dream reality, that changes like shifting sands, and so trying to get a lasting decision on anything is unlikely. At that point, my mother was trying to give people things one minute (seemingly sensible things - "I've finished with that magazine, do you want it?"), and accusing them of stealing the next. So not sure why some people seem to think the POA should be being used now.

As POA you have to try to keep everyone happy, and it's a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. Imagine the opposite of this post - "the POA has sold all my grandmother's belongings rather than keeping any in the family!"

My sister did the same as your POAs have done. I see nothing wrong in that. She's in a nursing home now, and there is no room for all that stuff. I'm sure a selection of belongings are already there (although I await the inevitable drip feed), just as we took Mum her favourite possessions when she was admitted to the nursing home.

But yes, report them if you like. And suggest yourself as the replacement.

Unfortunately yes. My mum is in her 90s and has had advanced dementia for the last two years. I have her LPA. When she received her diagnosis nearly five years ago we were advised to do it before she lost capacity, and because mum lives with us, we went into things very carefully to make sure her wishes were clear, both in the LPA and in her will. She has pretty much lost the capacity to make complex decisions now and I’ve had to use her health and welfare LPA several times. But even now, I make sure I involve mum as much as possible if I’m doing something on her behalf.

As anyone who has dealt with dementia will know, capacity is not a straightforward issue and I know mum is capable of thinking more clearly at certain times of the day and she still has lucid periods so I try to make sure she ‘s involved and understands as much as possible about what’s happening. Dementia is a horrible disease. I’ve watched my mum disappear in front of me over the last couple of years and the thought of anyone taking advantage of her illness and considering her possessions a free for all because she hasn’t the capability to make her wishes known is really distressing.

So not sure why some people seem to think the POA should be being used now.

If the donor has instructed that the LPA can be used as soon as it’s registered it can be used by the attorneys to help the donor make decisions while they still have capacity. The point here is that the donor hasn’t had a formal diagnosis of dementia, or an assessment of capacity so the family are only assuming capacity has been lost. The LPA doesn’t give the attorneys the right to take things from the donor for themselves - in fact it specifically prohibits them from profiting from them in any way. If any of the things they are taking are valuable they are part of the donors’ estate and should be used for the funding pot for care fees or other expenses incurred.