Should tax-free childcare and ‘free hours’ be universal?

[Nursery772]

Having attempted to apply for the new 15 free hours for my nearly two year old, I discovered you are not eligible if you earn over £100k.

My four year old also receives only 15 of the 30 free hours for the same reason.

I am not sure if the additional 15 hours from 9 months / 2 years will be income contingent.

Between this and tax-free childcare, I will lose about £12,000 of post tax income in 2024/5 tax year.

This seems very onerous!

Should tax-free childcare and ‘free hours’ not be universal? It is an expense to allow me to work, and I’m paying quite a bit of tax.

Also being applied as a cliff edge is brutal, seems to create an artificial ‘cap’ on the amount parents of preschoolers can earn.

This is so short sighted.

Do you not understand that circumstances change? Just because someone finds themselves destitute at one point does not mean that they have always been that way or will always be.

Being a high earner or benefit claimant isn't mutually exclusive.

The higher earners are the ones who put all the money into the pot. If they decide the system makes it pointless for them to keep earning at such levels while their children are in nursery, who do you then think will make up the shortfall to fund everyone else?

It’s really not my problem if people can’t get to toddler groups. It’s not society’s job to solve each and every problem for the individual. I all families with 2 working parents should receive funded childcare, regardless of earnings.

@Viviennemary

The lower earner is paying in £x in tax and extracting £y in benefits.

With y >>>> x

They are not subsidising anything. You dont understand that higher earners do not get a subsidy. They pay the full price from post tax income AND they pay large amounts of tax.

There is so much entitlement in the UK it is astonishing.

All tax payers fund the vulnerable, not just high earners. And of course people move up.and down that scale throughout their lives.

As a childfree person I'm selfishly saying no becuase I'll end up paying more tax to fund it and I don't get any benefit otherthan a measly 25% off my council tax. 😤 there is already enough help for families. I earn half of what you do so quite frankly I don't feel you need more help whilst I will end taking home even less to fund it. Does it bither u if peoplel ike us end up taking home less money becuase of your choices? No I doubt it.

And before someone comes out with the whole they will be paying for ur pension, I'm already making sure I have enough without needing state pension cos who knows what will happen in 30yrs time

You’re right op, and I do not believe it is policy, just a side-effect of policies not especially well thought through, and when the problems are revealed it’s really not something any government really cares about. The problem affects quite a small number of people, and most people can’t be bothered to understand the maths. It wouldn’t win enough votes to be worth fixing it. Tax and benefits aren’t fair, which is evident when you read umpteen threads on MN.

It does feel pretty harsh when you see how incredibly expensive a good nursery is in the SE. These thresholds haven’t changed in many years and they are eroded by inflation.

The only good thing about it is you only put up with it for a few years for each child you have. It’s not surprising perhaps that many people are choosing to stay child free or have only one child. We had a big age gap so our finances could recover. Not ideal.

👏🏻 👏🏻 👏🏻

Of course. I definitely planned to have twins this time around.

Unplanned pregnancies happen
Unplanned situations happen such as twins

So you should know it’s not always a choice then. That’s just one reason, there are others.

I still don't expect the government to support me financially because I'm a high earner. It needs to go towards the most in need.

But you have 2 high wages going into your household.

With one person on £100k, 2 kids in childcare costing £4k + and an average mortgage, plus bills, commuting costs, food, nappies, student loan etc ...they do need it. Yes, people earning less need help too, but to just pretend someone on £100k paying £5.5k+ out on childcare and mortgage on a modest house, couldn’t do with some help is madness. And it doesn’t make financial sense to the country anyway.

As I say, my children are teens and we are very comfortable so this doesn’t impact me at all, but I can still see this needs changing.

Second section should be in bold too.

At £50k = £3,064 take home pay and £7k in tax paid

At £100k with two kids in nursery = £1,400 take home pay and £25k in tax paid

At £120k with two kids in nursery = £2,084 take home pay and £36k in tax paid

I appreciate many of you think that £100k is a lot of money, but what about the OTHER person in the couple!?

I returned to work with twins, and had to return just two days a week to teaching. After childcare and petrol I earned £20 a week. If I'd worked a third day I would have paid tax on the income so I would have lost £30 a week overall.

So if my partner earned over £100k, then it would mean I'd be returning to work to lose money, or giving up my career until the child(ren) went to school. That's demoralising.

And on that basis alone, the 30 hours free childcare should be available to anyone who WANTS to have a career and work.

I think it's appalling that people earning a decent wage are still getting more out of tax than they are putting in. Wages across the board are shocking low.

You completely contradict yourself by saying its not the place for society to solve each and every problem for the individual yet demand higher earners have their childcare paid for.

I find the idea that the wealthy receive support whilst children go cold and hungry at the other end wholly repugnant. It's immoral.

It’s not contradictory at all. That’s like saying because I don’t think the state should intervene in cutting your grass, I can’t have another opinion on whether they should fund the maintenance of parks and forests. Just silly.

I find it repugnant that people have children then just expect the state to raise them because they can’t be bothered or clearly can’t afford it. They’re the real culprit here.

I didn’t comment on the cut off number. I said believe it should be total household income and therefore, raised.

It must feel like a giant issue for you but as I said, it’s less than 80k individual earners so I can see why it’s not top of the priority list for change.

I find it repugnant that people have children then just expect the state to raise them because they can’t be bothered or clearly can’t afford it. They’re the real culprit here.

They don’t expect the state to raise them, what a load of exaggerated nonsense.

.

You are expecting “the state to raise them” as you believe you should have funded childcare. Therefore, you’re as bad as the people you’re criticising.

Unfortunately I don't earn 100k, but I agree with you - tax free childcare and the 15 hours should be available to you.

Someone posted on here that it's your choice to have more than one child in nursery.

I think that's ridiculous - as a higher earner you probably took more time to study/build your career.

When you're a certain age as a woman, you have no other choice than having small age gaps, if you want to give your child a sibling.

You also pay more in taxes, so you're giving back to society.

Childcare costs shouldn't be so high in the first place - other countries such as Germany offer childcare that is very cheap, so why can't we?

Mumsnet don't understand you pay tax and don't get the benefits from it.

If you didn't work - no income tax taken, public purse accessed... but they don't see it like that on mumsnet

You are having children which the country needs and working.... should receive a gold medal

OP just chuck money in pension pot till your DC are young, that will save you tax and get free childcare. That's what all our friends have done and we do. You'll have a healthy pension pot.

Surprised it took five pages to mention the poor popping out kids.

Also OP we are exploring the option of moving to other countries in middle east where there are no taxes and much better quality of life for your money. if your industry allows then you should explore that option too. Some of our friends have moved and they totally love it. No point just paying higher taxes here to be treated unfairly just because you are hardworking and well qualified to be able to earn that sort of money here. This country rewards mediocrity and laziness!