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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Is this a safeguarding issue?

52 replies

StrawberryShortbread2001 · 26/01/2024 09:31

I'm in 2 minds about this so just looking for opinions.

(Before anyone starts this is not a school/teacher bashing thread. I am not planning on complaining just making the school aware)

My DD is 11yo and in Y7. She has ASD and maturity wise is nearer 9yo. She started a new school after October half term. It is a church school. I was aware that once a term they have a mass at the church next to the school but didn't know when.

So context is DD is in P.E (so no LSA) and the teacher says those in one particular house (Dd's house) had to go to the playground and on to the church for mass. It turns out they do it by houses so all DC from Y7-11 in that house went for the mass. Nothing had been mentioned in form time so DD was unaware this was going to happen and has never been to this church before or any RC church. As they were in P.E she didn't have her bag with her ear defenders so when she found it too loud couldn't put them on. She followed the other girls up to the altar and got confused that they were trying to give her 'food' (bread and wine.) So this is just to explain by the end of the service she was a bit distressed.

So when the service finished they were told to go back to their lesson. But DD has noone in her pew who was in her P.E class and she doesn't know her way around yet (school/I are/am working on it with her but she struggles with it.) So she hangs back to try and see someone in her class and in the crowd gets left behind. Once she realised this she did really well and found her way to the office in school and they took her back to her P.E class - so all good.

But I just worry what might have happened. The church is right next to the school and there is a gate from school to the church - they don't have to go on the pavement. But what if in her distress she had wandered off? Or someone found her in a state at the church?

YABU - you're worrying too much, she did the sensible thing and should be ok at 11 yo.
YANBU - this should be raised with the school

OP posts:
Whatdoy · 26/01/2024 23:37

TomeTome · 26/01/2024 15:27

What happened to it?

Show quote history

Why does that matter?

@StrawberryShortbread2001 - I have a child with SEN too. I’d speak to the senco and find out what the deal is. Will she always go from pe then back there (in which case at least she has had one run through now)?

She needs to
a) always have access to her disability aids

b) never be left in a situation where she could get lost alone off site (there is a gate from church-school, but is this the only route? Could she have wandered off from church into the street?)

c) the class she returns to need to know to especially check she is back

d) it needs to be made clear to everyone that she doesn’t have to take communion and can stay seated.

e) she needs to be made aware in advance of when mass will be so she is prepared for it.

f) she needs to have a couple of escorted trips so she knows the way (either with a friend, learning support, you if they claim they can’t spare anyone.

ButWhatAboutTheBees · 26/01/2024 23:59

If you knew mass would occur, even if not when, then you should have taken steps to inform her what this meant and prepare her.

Ghentsummer · 27/01/2024 00:07

StrawberryShortbread2001 · 26/01/2024 22:03

I don't know. You would have thought the priest would check before giving it to her, though!!

Show quote history

The priest is not going to check with every pupil individually before offering communion, he would be there all day. What they usually do is say at the start of communion that anyone not Catholic can come up for a blessing and show this by crossing their arms across their shoulders.

And given you've chosen to send her to a religious school that goes to mass it was on you to inform her of the basics.

TomeTome · 27/01/2024 00:09

Whatdoy · 26/01/2024 23:37

Why does that matter?

@StrawberryShortbread2001 - I have a child with SEN too. I’d speak to the senco and find out what the deal is. Will she always go from pe then back there (in which case at least she has had one run through now)?

She needs to
a) always have access to her disability aids

b) never be left in a situation where she could get lost alone off site (there is a gate from church-school, but is this the only route? Could she have wandered off from church into the street?)

c) the class she returns to need to know to especially check she is back

d) it needs to be made clear to everyone that she doesn’t have to take communion and can stay seated.

e) she needs to be made aware in advance of when mass will be so she is prepared for it.

f) she needs to have a couple of escorted trips so she knows the way (either with a friend, learning support, you if they claim they can’t spare anyone.

Show quote history

Well it’s a Catholic Church so if the wafer has been consecrated it shouldn’t be possible for a child to take it if she hasn’t had her first communion, and it certainly would be VERY unusual to be able to take it and not eat it (as in unheard of). So if school won’t put in support the church very much will.

Original poster
StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:10

Tummytroubles22 · 26/01/2024 22:12

I’d hope the church would be more concerned about a distressed child with ASN than worrying about a piece of eating paper!

I would definitely speak to the school, sounds like she needs a little more help when things change from the daily timetable, as do lots of junior pupils.

Me too!

OP posts:
Original poster
StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:14

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 26/01/2024 22:15

This. Where do you think she would have gone to rather than her school next door? Is it in her EHCP she is a flight risk? I'd think exceptionally important to make them aware for any future issues.

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I wouldn't call her a flight risk. She may have just stayed there and someone found her (not in a good way) or tried to find her way and gone the wrong way. I mean improbable but not impossible.

OP posts:
TomeTome · 27/01/2024 00:14

For a Catholic the consecrated bread IS the body of Christ. When you see Catholics genuflecting (one knee down) before taking their seats that is what they are recognising.

Original poster
StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:16

malmi · 26/01/2024 23:01

I’d hope the church would be more concerned about a distressed child with ASN than worrying about a piece of eating paper!

Depends on whether transubstantiation had occurred yet or not. Well, that would be an ecumenical matter.

I mean presumably it wouldn't in the hands of a non-RC. I don't know, though. But don't give it out if you're not sure!

OP posts:
WGACA · 27/01/2024 00:19

The school have a legal duty towards your child with an EHCP. The SENCo needs to be made aware this happened and outline the steps in her reply to ensure this situation does not happen again.

Original poster
StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:20

Whatdoy · 26/01/2024 23:37

Why does that matter?

@StrawberryShortbread2001 - I have a child with SEN too. I’d speak to the senco and find out what the deal is. Will she always go from pe then back there (in which case at least she has had one run through now)?

She needs to
a) always have access to her disability aids

b) never be left in a situation where she could get lost alone off site (there is a gate from church-school, but is this the only route? Could she have wandered off from church into the street?)

c) the class she returns to need to know to especially check she is back

d) it needs to be made clear to everyone that she doesn’t have to take communion and can stay seated.

e) she needs to be made aware in advance of when mass will be so she is prepared for it.

f) she needs to have a couple of escorted trips so she knows the way (either with a friend, learning support, you if they claim they can’t spare anyone.

Show quote history

No, I think it could depend as they are only once a term it would depend what day it was.

She could have wandered onto the street. That's a good summary, thank you.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:22

ButWhatAboutTheBees · 26/01/2024 23:59

If you knew mass would occur, even if not when, then you should have taken steps to inform her what this meant and prepare her.

Yes, I could. However I've never been in this church or any RC church so it would have been impossible for me to properly prepare her and she needs to be told on the day, anyway, although I could have found that out. But it needs to be someone that knows the church and the service who can properly prepare her.

OP posts:
Original poster
StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:25

Ghentsummer · 27/01/2024 00:07

The priest is not going to check with every pupil individually before offering communion, he would be there all day. What they usually do is say at the start of communion that anyone not Catholic can come up for a blessing and show this by crossing their arms across their shoulders.

And given you've chosen to send her to a religious school that goes to mass it was on you to inform her of the basics.

Edited
Show quote history

At my church they always check and it doesn't take all day, atall.

I have informed her of the basics but as an autistic DC she needs specifics!

OP posts:
Original poster
StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:27

TomeTome · 27/01/2024 00:09

Well it’s a Catholic Church so if the wafer has been consecrated it shouldn’t be possible for a child to take it if she hasn’t had her first communion, and it certainly would be VERY unusual to be able to take it and not eat it (as in unheard of). So if school won’t put in support the church very much will.

Show quote history

What do you mean by this? The church very much will in what way?

OP posts:
Original poster
StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:30

TomeTome · 27/01/2024 00:14

For a Catholic the consecrated bread IS the body of Christ. When you see Catholics genuflecting (one knee down) before taking their seats that is what they are recognising.

That's fine so just check before handing it out. And I'm not sure what you mean. Do you not kneel at the alter?

OP posts:
Ghentsummer · 27/01/2024 00:35

StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:25

At my church they always check and it doesn't take all day, atall.

I have informed her of the basics but as an autistic DC she needs specifics!

Show quote history

Your priest really asks before giving each person communion whether they should be taking it and your church has 150 kids going to mass?

Perhaps that's something you can research with her, how a Catholic service works. I understand why she would need specifics. The thing is a lot of the children will have been attending Mass for years, even those in her year group. So the school may not think to go through the basics.

crumblingschools · 27/01/2024 00:41

@TomeTome why would it not be possible for a child to take the wafer if they haven’t had their first communion? Surely if they have no idea what they are meant to do they just follow what other pupils are doing, which is how she ended up at the altar in the first place, as she just followed everyone else.

ButWhatAboutTheBees · 27/01/2024 00:43

StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:22

Yes, I could. However I've never been in this church or any RC church so it would have been impossible for me to properly prepare her and she needs to be told on the day, anyway, although I could have found that out. But it needs to be someone that knows the church and the service who can properly prepare her.

Show quote history

You sent her to the school...

It's easy enough to use Google etc.

I'd also assume this Church is open on a Sunday so you could have taken her to a "normal" Mass with you there to support her? Maybe then engaged the priest in conversation so she could get to know him and he could talk her through it?

The fact she was left behind is a risk assessment issue. But you should have prepared her for what Mass meant too

SingleMum11 · 27/01/2024 00:52

If your DD needs constant adult supervision, and there was a gap, then that is safeguarding. I don’t think a child has to be a flight risk to ask for constant adult supervision.

My DS is no longer a flight risk, but I put ‘possible flight risk’ on any form because in a way it’s true, he has no sense of safety and anything could trigger him to go somewhere else. He always needs an adult teacher/parent to keep an eye and he is 12.

So I would ask for your DDs needs or any plans to be revised in light of this and just say specifically what she needs.

TomeTome · 27/01/2024 02:16

crumblingschools · 27/01/2024 00:41

@TomeTome why would it not be possible for a child to take the wafer if they haven’t had their first communion? Surely if they have no idea what they are meant to do they just follow what other pupils are doing, which is how she ended up at the altar in the first place, as she just followed everyone else.

Because taking communion is a very serious thing. Children undergo a year of instruction, and reconciliation before they take communion. It would be really unusual for those who have had their first communion not to be known to staff, and I’d be surprised if a priest in this situation wasn’t very alert. The wafer must be eaten there and then you don’t take it to nibble on and the priest waits for it to be swallowed. So sacred is it that when it is broken that is done over the chalice, fingers and chalice are washed and the water drunk by the priest.

TomeTome · 27/01/2024 02:19

Sorry I pressed send too soon. My point really was the Church would be horrified at this level of supervision let alone the leaving of a young girl on the premises, so if the school don’t take it seriously I can guarantee the priest will.

booksandbrooks · 27/01/2024 07:34

malmi · 26/01/2024 23:01

I’d hope the church would be more concerned about a distressed child with ASN than worrying about a piece of eating paper!

Depends on whether transubstantiation had occurred yet or not. Well, that would be an ecumenical matter.

Bingo Smile

JMKid · 27/01/2024 08:04

I teach at a religious school and any time we have a mass all students are explained too that if not been confirmed then they can’t receive communion but can receive a blessing and to put their arm across their across to make it known. I’ve taught there for years, it gets explained every time, and some still take communion even if not religious. The priest won’t know who is and isn’t religious!!

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 27/01/2024 08:39

StrawberryShortbread2001 · 27/01/2024 00:16

I mean presumably it wouldn't in the hands of a non-RC. I don't know, though. But don't give it out if you're not sure!

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So you're blaming the priest?

Whatdoy · 27/01/2024 09:43

It really doesn’t matter that she had a wafer or where it went. God will not care. Communion wafers or bits of bread are distributed every day all over the world to all sorts of people in all sorts of circumstances- random stuff will happen to them all the time.

Itsmeamandaberry · 27/01/2024 10:16

@TomeTome you seem very hung up on why she got the "body of Christ" rather than why a vulnerable child was left unsupervised or supported. The wafer is not the issue here!