After Nottingham Is It Time for a MH Database

[WillimNot]

After seeing one of the victims family suggest that huge errors had been made in the Nottingham case that, if they hadn't of occurred the victims would still be alive.

So it makes me wonder whether we need a national database of people with Mental health issues.

Not for minor depression. But for potentially dangerous conditions like schizophrenia.

The guy who killed those people had been flagged before. He had other violent incidents. Yet as soon as he would leave custody or hospital, no checks were done to ensure he took his medication or engaged with his GP or MH team.

Over the years there were 3 other times he behaved in a way to get sectioned.

We know the NHS is struggling. So if we had a national database, it could flag someone who hasn't attended a review, or who hasn't had their medication prescribed. It could also flag someone for a random check, where they'd be expected to attend so a professional can make sure they have been taking their medication and they're feeling well.

There have been so many incidents now of people with severe mental illness who have harmed or killed people. I'm also thinking of the Reading stabbings in 2020. If they'd been flagged before they stopped engaging with medication or doctors, these incidents could've been avoided.

I have bi-polar and would have no issue with being on this database, because I engage with my GP and do what I should. But sadly not everyone does and this would go some way to try and ensure we don't have to see anymore families torn a part.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4993285-nottingham-attacks-verdict?page=1

Whole case being discussed here.

Unless the law has changed over the last few years there is a part of the mental health act which allows closer monitoring and allows people to be recalled to hospital if the don’t stick to certain conditions (maybe section 25?). I don’t know why it wasn’t used in this case but I’d much rather see that used more effectively than a national database - not least because for some huge percentage of people it would be a total waste of time and that there are thousands of people who don’t have mental illnesses doing horrible things.

I don’t want to see people with mental health issues being vilified x

Why not for minor depression? So many men have used depression and anxiety card an excuse for killing their partner and/or children.

Absolutely not. All it will do is lead to more people avoiding seeking medical help if there's no confidentiality.

@WillimNot you do realise that most people with schizsophinia are not dangerous and your suggestion will lump everyone together and allow the police etc to target anyone on the list for anything.
You do realise that if you were on that list it wouldn't just be the NHS and police who had the list it would also be schools, social workers and council staff too. Then when all of those people fail to do their jobs properly again (even in a perfect situation it will happen again) the list of people with access to the info gets bigger and bigger until soon everyone knows that your "dangerous" and/or "mental" and noone will hire you or rent to you all because some idiot decided we need a list of mental health patients who have never hurt anyone but have a certain diagnosis.
Do you honestly think that you should be discriminated against just because of your diagnosis, have you even thought through this list ideal.

Let's monitor the mentally ill!

Your post seems well meaning, but my first though on read this was the Aryan regime. This sounds hysterical I know

We need more specialised funding, pushing people into the community without support drives homelessness, anti social behaviour and drug addiction.

The money is available, it's being spent elsewhere. Instead of lip service we need action.

No, it's time for adequately funded and staffed mental health services.

If the NHS is already struggling, who will pay for this database?

No. Schizophrenia is a horrible illness. I'm not a mental health professional but I think I recall hearing that people with schizophrenia are at far greater risk of being hurt by someone else or self-harming than being violent to others. What we need in this country is properly funded high quality mental health services. Back in the 1980s when the old asylums were closed down and mostly sold for extremely profitable redevelopment as housing estates, the Tory government made empty promises about providing good quality community-based mental health care to replace them. It didn't happen and we are all suffering as a result. Such a false economy not to look after people with mental health problems properly, as early in life as possible. If it's not done, their lives and their families' lives are blighted, and we lose out on what they could be contributing to society as workers, taxpayers and good parents and neighbours. And from time to time, a paranoid schizophrenic in the grip of psychosis does something horrific like this. Surely we can do better.

At no point did I suggest this would be used by anyone other than MH services. Or be shared with anyone other than the patient and these medical services.

It's not to seek to vilify anyone. It's to ensure that people with MH issues get support that is seriously lacking, and to keep people safe, both patient and community.

Clearly current methods do not work. As one of the families said, these agencies need to take some level of responsibility as in her view they have blood on their hands.

An automated service would mean less chance of people falling through very vast cracks. It's the same as with smear tests, it's automated, we've all forgotten at some point and the text or letter we receive means we get a handy reminder to book. I don't see this as any different.

Of course, only those who repeatedly fail to engage and who end up arrested will end up known to the police. But if we had a medical only system hopefully before people became ill they'd already be receiving help and guidance and it wouldn't get to that point.

No need to clutch your pearls ladies. As I say, I have Bipolar. Wouldn't have an issue with this at all.

Elsewise this is a growing issue because of the way the NHS does next to nothing until a situation like this happens. By that time it's too late.

It could also flag someone for a random check, where they'd be expected to attend so a professional can make sure they have been taking their medication and they're feeling well

Random checks? Expected to attended? You can fuck off with that. It's not a crime to have a mental illness.

With mental illness, it takes an awful lot more than a.call to.engage someone. You can't 'McDonalds' mental illness . I don't own any pearls to clutch.

Why do you suggest anything criminal? I'm not saying that at all. I've already said I don't expect police involvement unless no other option.

And we someone with a MH condition, I would have no issue being asked to come in for a check up. In fact I'd welcome it.

I don't understand the righteous indignation here. I think if this individual had of been flagged better, this could've been avoided. I've often seen suggestions that the polices time is taken up dealing with things that GPs and MH teams should. So by having a system in place, fully automated, it could literally be as simple as an alert on the GPs internal systems saying "X is due a review, click to book" or "Y has not placed a prescription request make sure to call".

What's the alternative? More deaths?

I lived in Reading during the Forbury incident. I cannot tell you how frightened we were, because at first Police thought it was more than one person, we were told to lock doors and windows and stay inside. I knew several people who knew the victims. And why did it happen? Because the guy slipped through the net.

The gp should already be doing annual checks if there are significant health concerns, or the mental health team making contact however frequently it's decided necessary for each case.

How do you propose enforcing these checks? What are the penalties for non attendance and not opening the door?
When do you decide the person is no longer on probation, after one psychotic episode do they have to check in yearly for the rest of their life?

Why do you suggest anything criminal? I'm not saying that at all. I've already said I don't expect police involvement unless no other option

Because you're suggesting people with a mental illness should be monitored in the same way released criminals are by the probation system.

I don't care if you have a mental illness and think it's a good idea. I have a mental illness and I think it's an atrocious idea.

All we need is properly funded and properly trained police and mental health professionals. We need them to actually use the powers that already exist for those very, very unwell people.

What happens if they don't attend though?

Say someone on the list calls up and says they don't need the service anymore because they are doing OK, or misses an appointment because their bus broke and down and they were sick

Presumably mh services then attend the home address, maybe they aren't in or maybe they say "hi, I'm doing okay thanks but can't speak to you because my baby is sick, can we rearrange for a month?"

Would the police go get them and bring them to the appointment? Get them from their work place? Alert their employer?

If they seemed to not be doing OK, but weren't meeting the need to be in hospital would you get the police to bring them to every subsequent appointment until someone (who?) Decided they were doing better?

Or is it the second someone admits that they are hearing a voice they are hospitalised?

We currently have the care programme approach and care coordinators which was supposed to help with things like this. The problem in our area is that services are not adequately resourced, so many people with serious mental illnesses aren’t taken on by secondary care because there aren’t enough staff to support them. So they’re discharged back to a GP without adequate follow up and fingers crossed. AMHPs and crisis teams aren’t going out to see people because there is not enough provision to provide the support people need. So again, they’re left with nothing but a family on the edge if they’re lucky and a hope that it will be OK.

Mechanisms are already there, there are just too many people who need support and not enough services to provide it.

You are talking about two horrible, unfortunate incidents. Two. Over several years.

There is significantly more violence committed by people without mental illness than with mental illness. As has already been stated, people with serious mental illness are far more likely to be harmed by others or harm themselves, than other people.

It’s a stupid, ignorant, borderline discriminatory suggestion, however well-intentioned you think it might be.

What proportion of people with mental health issues commit violent acts compared to what proportion of men? Should there be random checks on men too?

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9132/

It's also worth saying that current mental health reforms are about reducing the use of the mental health act, and making the criteria stricter rather than encouraging more detentions and ctos

I think it's a very tricky line to walk. I'm often involved in mental health act assessment assessment and it's one of the thing that most impedes on people's lives.

Other than this and someother parts of mental health legislation allows people to be removed from their homes, detained somewhere with no evidence of a crime? Even with a crime people are often allowed a jury trial

It's very important that checks and balances remain in place to check it's use remains proportionate to protect those need it most but not as a measure of control

If you're bipolar, as I am, and interested in what kind of tabs are kept on people with mental illness, then you'll surely know that you're already on your GP's SMI register. Why would a national register necessarily be any better than one based at your local GP who's already supposed to know your needs?

You're asking for something that's unnecessary, draconian, and won't even prevent the kind of thing you're kneejerking over. I suggest you fuck off back to whatever totalitarian hole you crawled out of.

There must be some sort of database in place as on my medical records say " on the severe mental health register"
Edited to say:
I have bipolar 2, BPD, depression and anxiety.

Where would all the staff come from to ensure it all happens as it should?

At no point did I suggest this would be used by anyone other than MH services. Or be shared with anyone other than the patient and these medical services.

That's never going to happen.

My understanding was that people with severe mental illness are far more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators so no, let's not go there.

If you want databases of people who participate in crime, the main causal factor seems to be men. Want to start a list? No, thought not. Leave pople with mental illnesses alone. The vast, vast majority would never do anything like this.