AIBU to worry? Primary school (Y4) with poor SAT results + not catering to abilities in maths?

[Meeko505]

I recently spotted that my son's school had very poor SAT results last year (50% pass rate in maths and writing compared to 70%ish national average) and have been asking him more about his schoolwork. He says he's good at maths, and gets '0/1/2/3' wrong on 25-30 question tests. But when I asked him if they have ability tables or if some students do different work, he said no - they all do Qs from the textbook and everyone is told as a class to do the B column, middle difficulty, Qs. There is apparently no differentiation in the work they do whether for easier work or harder. The girl in his class who is apparently 'really really' good at maths has a private tutor come to her house but still does the B column questions.

I'm going to try and stretch him and do some more learning at home myself, but I wonder if this is uncommon and also potentially an indicator that he isn't receiving a particularly good education? We've mostly been thinking about it recently because looking at a high school with an entrance exam and suddenly worrying that if our state primary has low standards then it might be a challenge for him even if he is doing well in his current class.

Anyone?

I would be thinking that he can't really know what every other pupil is doing. Perhaps the more able do the middle colmn as a warm up and then extension activities are provided.
However i have heard that primary maths education is at the moment all about Chinese style 'mastery' and 'fluency' , where the class all moves on together,
To be britally honest , if your boy is getitng up to12% (3/25) questions wrong , then he is working at the right level anyway.

This is fair, although I think if he also often gets 0 wrong then I am surprised there is no room to stretch at all either.

A few things:
-If you want to target selective secondaries you might want to consider tutoring; even very bright kids usually need help with exam technique and stuff like reasoning which they won’t do elsewhere unless at a (private) prep school
-If he’s getting up to 3 questions wrong on tests then it sounds like he’s working at about the right level
-There’s no way he knows what level the other children (30ish?) are all working at; the column B test questions from the textbook won’t be the entirety of their maths curriculum

That’s not to say that the school isn’t poor, or that he wouldn’t benefit from extra work with you, in fact I would definitely push ahead with that if you’re thinking about the 11+. I just don’t think what you’ve posted isn’t enough to go on by itself.

Thanks for this advice. It's selective but fee-paying, so I assume the standard is lower than a lot of 11+ grammars but also unsure how high either.

I agree that he may be working to target, but I also feel like he could be stretched because he says maths is quite easy and really enjoys the tests - I think he's the kind of kid who sometimes makes silly mistakes by not thinking things through, so at least at home I might do extra consolidation work with him to work on these mistakes first.

I did just have a look at the latest Ofsted report and it does suggest that due to lack of assessment and poor sequencing, there are issues where the school struggles to move pupils onto more advanced work, which really confirms my suspicions.

I think that depends on the school and your area. Some independent secondaries can be incredibly selective and there’s no way that even a very bright child would get in without preparation. Not saying that necessarily applies but it’s definitely something to research. Ofsted also isn’t the be all and all but I agree with you that the overall picture doesn’t look great. If he’s happy though that counts for a lot! And you sound like you’re on it so I’m sure he’ll be fine 😀

Thank you. You're right that it must really depend - I can't seem to find any admissions stats and the school don't even publish example papers etc. so I am not sure how to find out how hard the tests are. I haven't attended an open day yet, but I'd guess if I asked they would just recommend applying and seeing. I do feel good about the plan to consolidate and stretch him at home, anyway - he does pick concepts up quickly I think.

There’s no way he knows what level the other children (30ish?) are all working at; the column B test questions from the textbook won’t be the entirety of their maths curriculum

Sorry, but that's bollocks. I've had three DC go through a total of four different primary schools and by Y4 all children will have a very, very good idea of the level that other pupils are working at, and if any children are receiving more or less difficult work than the class average.

I'd be concerned too, OP, with the combination of both poor SATS results and an apparent lack of differentiated learning. I think you need to speak to the school - no need to go in all guns blazing, but it is perfectly reasonable to ask the question about how they ensure all children are working at the right level. Ask and see what they say.

I'd also suggest a call to the admissions team of the secondary you are considering and learn more about their applications process and their typical feeder schools. PP is right that the selective element might be anything from making sure children are reasonably capable of learning, through to highly selective exams that will almost certainly require tutoring.

Does the school you are considering publish their GCSE and A level results online? That should be a good starting point.

Also, don't assume that fee-paying selective is less competitive than state selective/11+ grammars. Depending where you live, the applicants who didn't make it into the state selective (could run into the hundreds of students if it's a very popular grammar) could well be applying for the fee paying as the second best option, so you are up against 11+ standard applicants for the fee paying exam. Or perhaps they just prefer the fee paying for the extracurricular activities and amenities.

I'd consider getting a tutor who is used to coaching for the entrance exam you are thinking of your DC taking. They will be able to tell you after a while how close/how far your DC is to required standards, even if you choose not to continue with tutoring thereafter, or just tutor for extra support rather than exam prep.

Lots of people who want their DCs to be tutored start tutoring in Year 5 (plenty in Year 4 but it really kicks in for Year 5) so if you are considering tutoring, have a look around now to ensure you get a good one you are happy with. Some of the best tutors can get fully booked up quickly.

How big is his school?
My kids are in a very small village primary (around 6 children in each year group, 3 year groups in a classroom) and the teachers often give them more difficult (1-2 years ahead) work to try after they have completed what the rest of their year group has done.

Sorry, but that's bollocks. I've had three DC go through a total of four different primary schools and by Y4 all children will have a very, very good idea of the level that other pupils are working at, and if any children are receiving more or less difficult work than the class average.
Is it? Sorry @AbbeFausseMaigre I didn’t know I was good at maths until they made me sit an extension paper for Y6 SATS and my DD wouldn’t know beyond who is receiving extra support with the TA. I’m sure some are more observant than others though! What I really meant was these ‘column B’ tests surely aren’t their entire maths curriculum, I hope not anyway, so there’s likely more to it.
I agree 💯 with your advice to speak to the school and admissions at the preferred secondary though!

I've had two go through primary school and neither of them knew what levels others were working at, despite nosy me asking. Some kids are taken out for extra work but they didn't know if that was extra help or extension.
Some kids know everything - I remember having a DC friend on a playdate and she set all the soft toys at tables and gave them class names based on their ability. I had an education that day!

I’m a primary teacher and this is the current trend of teaching - everyone is taught the same and should be able to keep up (I disagree) and then there is a textbook which they all fill in.

Im not a fan of this method and have added in some things within my teaching to help some pupils such as mental maths starters and differentiated questions to try before they get to the textbook (to hopefully enable them all to be able to answer some questions at that point in their textbook!). We also always have a challenge for those who complete their textbook.
I would politely ask the teacher if there are any challenges your child should be doing if he completes the textbook as you may find there is something in place already.

DC English Primary has low maths Sats results but just maths.

My older two had problems with maths at young ages - and we step in with mathsfactor for them which I'm really glad we did.

They had an new teachers take Y5 for DD1 - they tested the entire year group. Maths sets that had been static for two years changed dramatically - top set became all female and every single one had had some-kind of outside help.

We moved to wales year after and school - no stats but what they did was teach much more to abilities so kids like ours- now very good at maths -did get stretched - and ones who struggled like ours in earlier years weren't left floundering like ours had been - there was a noticeable difference in approach.

So I would be concerned - I'd probably start by doing bit more at home and look into tutoring.

Ah, this is good advice. Just called them. They said they have a big mix from just above average to very bright and exceptional, which sounds perfect really - not too much pressure on getting in and hopefully won't feel overwhelmed by other kids all being much smarter.