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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask someone to explain the post office scandal as if I was a small child?

46 replies

dummy123456 · 18/01/2024 22:58

its been all over the news but I’m so confused and I have no idea what’s going on

OP posts:
WhatIsHeThinking · 18/01/2024 22:59

You could start by watching the TV drama, which explains it all pretty well?!

YesThatsATurdOnTheRug · 18/01/2024 23:00

There were a lot of incidents where people who ran post offices were accused of stealing thousands and thousands of pounds, but it was due to computer errors and not true at all. Post office covered it up and got people sent to jail for theft when they knew it was computer errors. Lives were destroyed, some committed suicide, lost homes, lost families. Absolute tragedy and huge disgrace.

Zingy123 · 18/01/2024 23:00

The post office installed a computer system called Horizon. Sub postmasters began to see money missing on their accounts. The post office made them think it was only happening to them. Many were charged with theft and some sent to prison. They knew all along the system was faulty.

turkeymuffin · 18/01/2024 23:01

dummy123456 · 18/01/2024 22:58

its been all over the news but I’m so confused and I have no idea what’s going on

Watch the itv drama

DappledThings · 18/01/2024 23:04

The Great Post Office Trial in BBC Sounds is really good too. That explained it all a few years ago.

NeedToChangeName · 18/01/2024 23:05

X worked in Post Office. Took in money eg when customers bought stamps

Post Office computer system called Horizon (created by Fujitsu) was faulty and suggested (incorrectly) that X was stealing the money

X queried it. Fujitsu assured him the system worked well, no one else was having problems

X was prosecuted and pled / found guilty

Up and down the UK, to loads of people

In 2019, court action established that the system was faulty and Fujitsu staff had access to the system. So, the records were incorrect. Therefore, convictions unsafe

This was widely known and publicised but politicians didn't really care until voters watched the recent itv drama

PartTimePartyPooper · 18/01/2024 23:08

The PO put new computers in the tills which count how much money people spend sending letters and parcels. It looked like the people working in the Shops with these tills were lying about how much money the customers had spent. The PO said the people running the shops that had the Post Office computers were stealing. The PO didn’t believe the shop managers even though lots of them complained. Some managers got very frightened they would be sent to prison for stealing, and used their own money to give the PO the missing money. The PO told the police anyway. The shop managers got in a lot of trouble and it took a long, long time for everyone to prove the computers weren’t working. Some people went to prison for stealing, who shouldn’t have done. The Post Office were very unkind and should have investigated when lots and lots of shop managers told them the tills weren’t working properly,

BestZebbie · 18/01/2024 23:12

Every week postmasters/mistresses have to do "the balance", which is like a mini audit/stocktake of the cash in and out of the branch that week, and what remains in the safe (including money-like things such as stamps and electric meter keys etc). Transactions are not just sending the post, but also acting as a portal for government services such as elderly people collecting their pension money in cash every week (as this was before everything was digital and done through online banking/direct debits).

Before the 1990s it was all done with paper records and physically tallied. Around the turn of the century the Post Office (which is a central company controlling things like the brand and the money transport that individual postmasters/mistresses franchise their individual local business from) decided that this was out of date and should be switched to a digital system instead, where transactions were recorded using touchscreens and then the computer would work out the running totals of the transactions itself. Traditionally, if the balance was 'down' (missing money that ought to be there) the franchise holder had to replace it (e.g.: repay the Post Office company) from their own pocket, as it was assumed to have either been stolen or handed out in error when making change etc.

Unfortunately, the Horizon software was faulty, and would reasonably frequently duplicate transactions or only record one part (e.g.: money given out but not what it was for etc). Not only that, but if queried, it would sometimes increase the errors. This led to lots of postmasters/mistresses having to pay the Post Office large amounts of their own money to replace fictional "lost" cash, and/or being accused of theft/fraud, losing their franchise and even being jailed.
The errors tended to go in the Post Office' favour and against the individuals, and it suited the Post Office to assume that everyone was on the fiddle and they were finally bringing them all bang to rights. As a result, there were also 'failures' in the investigation process and the ways in which individuals were treated - and the Post Office interacted with each one as an isolated event, not part of a wider pattern, which might have allowed the victims to realise or prove what was going on sooner, had they known it was systemic.

This has now all come to light and been on the telly, and so lots of people are now very angry about the miscarriages of justice, in particular the people who were wrongly publicly accused of fraud, required to pay money to the Post Office for no reason and had their lives ruined.

Aria2023 · 18/01/2024 23:14

The post office installed a new computer system that would automatically balance the books for the subpostmasters (this was done manually in the past). Subpostmasters found that they couldn't get their books to balance and the system was showing money missing. Ultimately the post office accused them I stealing the money. They denied that the missing money could be due to any issues with the computer system, in fact they and the software company that designed the system said this was impossible and the only possible explanation was that the sub-postmasters stole the money.

Because of the threat of jail (some went to jail) and the colossal costs for fighting the allegations, many postmasters felt they had no choice but to admit guilt when they were innocent. But even those who didn't, they all lost their post office businesses which caused many financial ruin and all the other life stresses that come with it.

The post office have since admitted that the computer system was flawed and the cause of the issues AND that they actually knew about it, but still pursued the post masters anyway.

Awful.

PurpleNebula84 · 18/01/2024 23:15

PartTimePartyPooper · 18/01/2024 23:08

The PO put new computers in the tills which count how much money people spend sending letters and parcels. It looked like the people working in the Shops with these tills were lying about how much money the customers had spent. The PO said the people running the shops that had the Post Office computers were stealing. The PO didn’t believe the shop managers even though lots of them complained. Some managers got very frightened they would be sent to prison for stealing, and used their own money to give the PO the missing money. The PO told the police anyway. The shop managers got in a lot of trouble and it took a long, long time for everyone to prove the computers weren’t working. Some people went to prison for stealing, who shouldn’t have done. The Post Office were very unkind and should have investigated when lots and lots of shop managers told them the tills weren’t working properly,

The Police weren't involved... Nor the Crown Prosecution Service... The Post Office brought their own cases against them.

girlfriend44 · 18/01/2024 23:18

dummy123456 · 18/01/2024 22:58

its been all over the news but I’m so confused and I have no idea what’s going on

Why don't you understand? It's quite easy to follow.
There's also a book, a podcast and a TV series.

PurpleNebula84 · 18/01/2024 23:18

PurpleNebula84 · 18/01/2024 23:15

The Police weren't involved... Nor the Crown Prosecution Service... The Post Office brought their own cases against them.

That's an even bigger part of the scandal because the Post Office have legal authority to charge, prepare and administer their own prosecutions on behalf of the Crown.

Fizbosshoes · 18/01/2024 23:18

As above but not only did Fujitsu know relatively early on that the system was faulty, they also falsely claimed that no one else other than the individual sub post masters could access the system to record their transactions. In fact Fujitsu were able to (and did) access individual accounts to alter figures .
Paula Vennells was a big cheese at the post office and a petition was started to discredit her and strip her of her CBE. She gave it up, but their must be a lot of other senior figures at both the PO and Fujitsu that were also culpable.
Hopefully the inquiry is going to identify them.

alphajuliet123 · 18/01/2024 23:22

”In fact Fujitsu were able to (and did) access individual accounts to alter figures”

But why did they alter the figures?

Klcak · 18/01/2024 23:22

YesThatsATurdOnTheRug · 18/01/2024 23:00

There were a lot of incidents where people who ran post offices were accused of stealing thousands and thousands of pounds, but it was due to computer errors and not true at all. Post office covered it up and got people sent to jail for theft when they knew it was computer errors. Lives were destroyed, some committed suicide, lost homes, lost families. Absolute tragedy and huge disgrace.

Edited

Yes, and all the while, bosses were getting paid ££££££

surreygirl1987 · 18/01/2024 23:26

I know this is probably a silly question...but WHY? Why the big cover up? When they knew the system was faulty and that the money wasn't being stolen, why didn't it just get sorted out there and then?

whiteboardking · 18/01/2024 23:29

The post office installed a new computer system that had faults. It made it look like post masters stealing. They weren't.
Staff kept telling the PO the system was wrong. PO said it wasn't.
Postmasters had to pay back the 'lost' money. Many taken to court for fraud and theft.
Legally the PO broke ALL the rules around fair legal proceedings.

CreateHope · 18/01/2024 23:31

@surreygirl1987 money & greed. Fujitsu would have had to spend a fortune fixing the bugs and potentially lost the contract in the meantime - much easier for the lying pricks to collude with senior managers at the PO to cover the whole thing up.

whiteboardking · 18/01/2024 23:33

surreygirl1987 · 18/01/2024 23:26

I know this is probably a silly question...but WHY? Why the big cover up? When they knew the system was faulty and that the money wasn't being stolen, why didn't it just get sorted out there and then?

I'm not sure. The post office wasn't profitable at the time so can only assume they decided that there was one issue. So went after all 'losses'.
But post masters were paying back £1000s into a black hole.
700 odd involved but suspect many more 'paid back' smaller amounts.
15,000 post offices ish

MinnieCauldwell · 18/01/2024 23:37

alphajuliet123 · 18/01/2024 23:22

”In fact Fujitsu were able to (and did) access individual accounts to alter figures”

But why did they alter the figures?

Suspect they were bug fixing on the live system, something that should never be done.

whiteboardking · 18/01/2024 23:37

In law you are innocent until proven guilty. Evidence has to be legally robust. All relevant info has to be disclosed.
Post Office broke every legal rule on this. They hid information. They lied.
Innocent people went to jail and lost livelihoods

BashfulClam · 18/01/2024 23:41

There is a good podcast on BBC sounds about it.

WyrdyGrob · 18/01/2024 23:42

I aren’t totally sure exactly why this gets mentioned @alphajuliet123

im not a computer expert, but I think the press reprorts conflated these things slightly.

the computer system was shit. And the code so badly written that errors got generated within the system leading to the balances showing as wrong.

when the post Office pursued a prosecution for theft and false accounting, the prosecutions rested on two central ‘facts‘. The missing money must have been stolen by the individuals because
One — the system could not possibly be wrong.
Two — that the only other explanation for missing money was that the figures could be altered at the programmers. But that it was physically impossible for this to happen. The system did not allow it

the post office reps stood up in court and swore in multiple cases that both of these facts are true. knowing that this was not the case.

bosses at the PO knew the system was a bag of shite, AND were fully aware that anyone at their end could theoretically have altered the figures.

MarieKlepto · 18/01/2024 23:43

Let's get real. In the space of a year, genuine fraudster postmasters went from a handful to hundreds (possibly thousands as many haven't come forward) and seemingly, no one saw that as odd. Then you realise Fujitsu, the software providers also provides IT services to Government departments including the Home Office, the Foreign Office, Defra and the Ministry of Defence. Contracts include the Police National Computer, the Government's flood warning system, and the national emergency alerts system. Without Fujitsu the UK would crumble so it made sense to cover it up because who cares about a few "little people". Sickening.

PurpleNebula84 · 19/01/2024 09:35

surreygirl1987 · 18/01/2024 23:26

I know this is probably a silly question...but WHY? Why the big cover up? When they knew the system was faulty and that the money wasn't being stolen, why didn't it just get sorted out there and then?

I think (in the beginning) they were probably assured over and over that it was working fine, but by the point they had evidence it wasn't working, they'd already ruined so many people's lives, recovered millions that didn't belong to them and it would cost them a hell of a lot more to put it right, so denying was easier and less costly and didn't want to have admit the sub post masters had been right all along.

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