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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To absolutely hate heat pumps?!

140 replies

Rosesandstars · 18/01/2024 16:57

We moved into a house with a heat pump already set up. It is awful- it takes ages for the heating to get to any reasonable temperature and the hot water runs out after a 15 minute shower, it then takes over an hour to heat up again. Does anyone else find the same or AIBU?


Updated by MNHQ
Landed on this page in search of heat pump advice? Find our guide to installing a heat pump in your UK home here. HTH!

OP posts:
Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 05:28

Yabu
ours is great, installed last year and so just had our first proper cold snap with it
house has been warm throughout. Plenty of hot water (we have a big tank though) - not run out yet
my betting is yours was installed by someone who didn’t really understand how they work. You don’t just buy it and install it and hope for the best. You need a hot water tank and may need new pipes and/or better radiators
we invested a lot of money getting it right. But had no issues And running costs are lower than this time last year (before it was installed)

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 19/01/2024 07:23

CanadaNotAMum · 19/01/2024 03:08

I guess the moral of the story is that every country has its weird quirks, such as:

  • British people think Canadians and Americans use extravagant amount of home heating and tumble drying, and have poor quality chocolate. (I agree with the last part).
  • Canadians and Americans think that the British have cultivated an odd cultural identity where they keep a stiff upper lips while mildly suffering in their chilly, damp homes, worrying instead of turning up the heat a bit. We also wonder why so many British people make a point of having tumble driers but not actually using them.
  • British people must think that Canadians and Americans have all gone paranoid with our continental-wide terror of mildew and mold. One spot on the windowsill and we run for the hills and call the mold remediation people.
  • Americans think nothing of using dryers and gas guzzling cars, but they have a weird belief that electric kettles waste huge amounts of electricity, so they make sad, lukewarm cups of tea in the microwaves. British and Canadians laugh at the Americans being terrified of kettles and sipping their sad microwave tea.
  • Canadians like to think that we on par with the British in that we make tea correctly (unlike the poor Americans)…but I’m guessing that our British friends don’t think that Canadian tea is much better than American microwave tea and we are just oblivious.
Edited

I love this @CanadaNotAMum 😂

I have never tried Canadian tea but would love to come round for a cuppa and a chat at yours one day to find out!

DH and I holidayed in Canada once, pre-kids, and loved the friendliness so much that we looked into emigrating. It wasn't feasible career-wise in the end, but we must take the kids there on holiday.

P.S. We used to have lovely Cadbury's chocolate, till Kraft foods took over and ruined it 😢

RidingMyBike · 19/01/2024 09:26

@CanadaNotAMum the grants for heat pump installation in England will only pay for units that heat, they won't cover units that have air con too.

Usou · 19/01/2024 09:34

Microwaved tea???!

Where's my crucifix??!

MojoMoon · 19/01/2024 09:42

Sounds like your hot water cylinder is too small?

Change your set back temperature overnight to be a degree higher. It is counterintuitive but it is more efficient for it to be running for many hours than getting it to ramp up and down between temperatures.

I like my heat pump . House is basically the same temperature all the time which I think is better for the house as well. Oct was £45 quid, Nov was £90, Dec was was £105. Summer months are under £20. Two bed terrace, no gas at home.

There is a lot of organised anti heat pump PR funded by fossil fuels companies
https://www.desmog.com/2023/07/20/revealed-media-blitz-against-heat-pumps-funded-by-gas-lobby-group/
https://www.current-news.co.uk/energy-and-utilities-association-hired-pr-firm-to-promote-negative-heat-pump-stories/

Revealed: Media Blitz Against Heat Pumps Funded by Gas Lobby Group

An energy trade association that represents and promotes gas boilers and manufacturers is behind a barrage of negative press attacking heat pumps, DeSmog has learned. Over the past two years, the Energy and Utilities Association (EUA) has paid a public...

https://www.desmog.com/2023/07/20/revealed-media-blitz-against-heat-pumps-funded-by-gas-lobby-group

RedPony1 · 19/01/2024 09:51

BatteryPowerGnat · 19/01/2024 00:11

Surely you don't have the water running all the time?

On my "big shower" i absolutely keep the water running when doing my body hair maintenance - i'm not going to stand in the cold and it's relaxing. Big showers are easily 20 mins long

I don't have a bath, but also would sit in water shaving my legs with the hair floating around.

AlltheFs · 19/01/2024 10:10

I timed my shower this morning, 19 minutes. I made the most of the fact the water was actually hot.

And for those wondering no we don’t have a water meter as the arsehole water companies won’t install one as the village water supply is too difficult to navigate. We live in a cottage that has shared supply and they can’t be arsed to unpick it all to work out where a meter could go. So as they can’t be arsed to sort it, I can’t be arsed to try and reduce our usage. We are paying an absolute fortune (more than double our previous house only a few miles down the road). So my only revenge is to be profligate with usage so I am at least getting my money’s worth.

GasPanic · 19/01/2024 11:15

CanadaNotAMum · 19/01/2024 02:42

They absolutely can! I don’t know what’s going on with heat pump technology in n Britain, but the core idea is that it can pull heat out of cold air and use that to make a room warmer, or even can do the reverse and pull heat from the door air outside, I.e air conditioning. If you need a room to be warmer, it pumps heat in, but if you need cool a room, it pumps the heat outside.

I think it is because the UK government only issues grants for pumps that can heat. So most of the ones installed only do heating and not cooling.

I am not sure, but I think the heat/cool ones blow air rather than circulate water.

In the UK I think the government decided air con was too environmentally unfriendly, which is why they decided not to issue grants for the heat/cool pumps. So no one thinks they can do cooling.

I do know people who have fitted their own pumps that blow warm air in winter and cool in summer, but they paid for it all themselves.

As regards the hot water issue, there are a number of potential causes and solutions.

Heat pumps generate less power than boiler so it takes more time to deliver the energy. With a gas boiler you can turn on the hot water while you are showering, and there is enough power in the boiler to replace the used hot water with more hot water as it used - a bot like a combi boiler, the used water can be replaced in real time.

However with a heat pump the power is much less, so sometimes this is not possible. There are several potential solutions. One is to have a bigger hot water tank. The next is to have a supplementary electric (immersion) heater in the hot water tank to supplement the heat pump when hot water is in demand. Of course this will produce hot water at 3x the cost of the heat pump when used.

There is an issue with heat pumps that they become more efficient at low heat temperatures. This is why you need big radiators and UFH, because generally you run them at lower temperatures with bigger radiators to achieve the same effect as boilers. What this means is most heat pumps are set to produce hot water at much lower temperatures than boilers, say 50C rather than 70C. This can mean the hot water tank does not get as hot. Normally they have some sort of program capability that allows them to raise the hot water temp only when hot water is produced (this also helps prevent legionella) but this results in lower efficiency and higher cost if it is done all the time. So it is possible that the settings on this heat pump may have been screwed up for the hot water generation/programming, or the last person set it because they only needed a limited amount of hot water and it is inefficient to generate more.

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 11:41

@GasPanic speaks a lot of sense.
We have never had a hot water issue though have a fairly big tank (300 litres), in hindsight we probably could have managed with smaller
Also have an immersion heater in it to heat it quickly if required (eg if we had four baths in a row!) but not used it yet.

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 14:08

@Rosesandstars
was discussing your post with my DH at lunch. He offers the following (apols for being long and digressing a bit but I agree with everything he says)

If your post said "AIBU to hate living in a cold house?" then no, (almost) nobody would like that. But you're not living in a cold house strictly because it's got a heat pump.

Consider this; if I said "AIBU to hate it when the food in my fridge goes off?", people might ask what the thermostat was set to, if the seals were damaged, if it had been cleaned recently. I doubt anyone would start ranting about heatpumps and how they don't work, because most people have experience of fridges, freezers or air conditioning. They all use the same basic technology and physical principles as the ones used to heat houses, but no-one complains about them because by and large they work as expected.

In Scandinavian countries, heat pumps are commonplace, normal, yet these are not places known for their mild winters. They demonstrably do work in cold conditions. So why is your house cold?

The simple answer is that whoever fitted the heatpump either didn't know what they were doing, or didn't care about whether the end result would be any good, or possibly both. If you want something or someone to hate, cowboy plumbers would be a good start.

The (rather) more complex answer is that gas boilers and cheap gas have allowed the building trade to be, for want of a better word, lazy. Most gas boilers are hugely oversized, outputs of 25-30kW are not uncommon (for reference, an ordinary hairdryer is 2-3kW). This is mainly so it can can heat water on-demand - so you can't "run out" of hot water - while avoiding the need to fit a tank. It's convenient for the user, but it also saves builders money (less plumbing, no tank). On top of that, builders don't need to size a heating system properly, they just chuck in a powerful boiler and let cheap gas do the work.

Hot water aside, almost nobody actually needs to pump 25kW into their homes, unless you like to set your thermostat at 28C or you live in an actual, literal mansion. But such high outputs (and the fact that gas has historically been so cheap) has meant builders can just install small cheap radiators with pipework barely big enough for drinking straws, buildings can be poorly insulated and leaky, and people just compensate by running their heating at 60-70C. This is not efficient even for a gas boiler, but again nobody cared because gas was cheap.

Our house is an unremarkable 15yo detached. It has cavity and loft insulation, but is by no means "super well insulated". The windows in particular were pretty draughty even when closed!
Our installer did a survey, got the dimensions and materials of the house, and got a heat loss calculation done for each room. Off that, we then sized the radiators for each room; the installer started off assuming a relatively low maximum flow temperature (eg 40C) since this is most efficient (aka uses least energy = cheapest to run). If what's there is already big enough, great. If not, you either need a bigger one, or you'll need to set a higher flow temperature. That will make your heatpump less efficient, but you'll save money on new radiators. Swings and roundabouts.

We ended up replacing a number of radiators, moving some around internally, and removing a couple as well. And installed a large water tank. It's taken some tweaking but the house is always a pleasant temperature, and our bills are lower than they were with the old gas boiler, while we are more comfortable and we've yet to experience a 'no hot water' situation.

If whoever did your install didn't do their due diligence and follow through on the necessary changes, you'll have a shit experience. Most commonly the radiators are left too small, meaning that there isn't enough surface area to transfer heat energy through. You can either crank up the flow temps (which will help but will cost a fortune, and still may not work that well) or freeze. Or in the longer run, you could consider getting a heating engineer to have a look at the system. It could be that you could change some of the radiators and have a system that would work much better.

Lots of people will say "I can't afford all this" and that's fair, this shit is expensive. There needs to be comprehensive support from government to get us off fossil gas. This also has to include planning rules, and training support for installers, since that is also a major bottleneck. Some people will say "I could afford it but I'll never make my money back". To those people I say "no, you probably won't". I've mentioned over and over how we are in this mess because many recently built houses have been built with an eye to making the most profit for the builder, not making them economical and comfortable to live in. Be angry with the large house builders, they have consistently lobbied governments for lax energy standards. They got the profits, we get the poorly insulated housing and high bills.

Separately there has been minimal support for people to make energy efficiency upgrades to older homes. What little there was got binned by Tory governments in 2012 or so. So now we have a huge backlog of housing stock that will need expensive retrofit to be able to use heatpumps economically.

Yes as a country we could just "stay on gas" for heating, but we don't want to be beholden to the likes of Putin or the Gulf states when it comes to energy sources. The UK has an outsize responsibility for historical emissions, particularly when we consider things like all the logging done in former colonies for the profit of Empire. So we really should be leading the way when it comes to getting away from it.

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 14:13

StrawberryShortbread2001 · 18/01/2024 21:35

So if you don't like your house warm all the time they're no good? I'd find it oppressive having heat on all the time. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

It takes a lot of energy to heat up your house via a heatpump so the idea is that the house is at a fairly constant temperature all day. Ours is set to 19, I think 17 at night (warm enough that we are still on summer quilts!). But not actually 'toasty' or oppressive. And works well if you wfh, which we do.

AlltheFs · 19/01/2024 14:26

As an aside, some companies are doing cheap fixed price installs (loss making but they have targets). We are renovating our cottage so it’s a good time for us as all the radiators need changing anyway and the whole house needs decorating.

Octopus are doing ours for £9666, minus the £7,500 grant and £250 discount from manufacturer so costing us £1916. That’s for a 3 bed thatched cottage (solid walls mostly but the thatch insulates well and we have already replaced all the windows and external doors), all the radiators being changed and lots of pipework. Absolute bargain and better than us battling with oil price variations.

We have had air source heat pump before though so know how to manage them.

Daftasabroom · 19/01/2024 14:35

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 14:13

It takes a lot of energy to heat up your house via a heatpump so the idea is that the house is at a fairly constant temperature all day. Ours is set to 19, I think 17 at night (warm enough that we are still on summer quilts!). But not actually 'toasty' or oppressive. And works well if you wfh, which we do.

It doesn't take anymore energy to heat your house by heat pump than it does by any other means.

Bramshott · 19/01/2024 15:01

YANBU to hate YOUR heat pump if it's not working well for you and the hot water cyclinder is too small for your needs.

YABU to extrapolate from that that you hate heat pumps in general. As many PPs have said - lots of us have them, including in older, non-underfloor-heated houses, and find them really good.

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 15:24

Daftasabroom · 19/01/2024 14:35

It doesn't take anymore energy to heat your house by heat pump than it does by any other means.

As far as kWh of heat input to the house, you're completely correct. What I meant is the harder you push a heat pump, the less efficient it is. So we would use more electricity, as well as wearing out the compressor in the heatpump faster, if we tried to heat the house from cold, rather than just maintaining a comfortable temperature. This is one of the biggest differences between a gas boiler and a heatpump, you have to think about it quite differently.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 19/01/2024 15:25

So do you have to have a tank if you have a heat pump?

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 15:26

Bramshott · 19/01/2024 15:01

YANBU to hate YOUR heat pump if it's not working well for you and the hot water cyclinder is too small for your needs.

YABU to extrapolate from that that you hate heat pumps in general. As many PPs have said - lots of us have them, including in older, non-underfloor-heated houses, and find them really good.

indeed you need to find a heatpump -friendly engineer that can tell you what steps re required to make your house warmer and hot water supply more plentiful.

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 15:34

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 19/01/2024 15:25

So do you have to have a tank if you have a heat pump?

If you want the heatpump to heat the water then broadly yes - other option is to use the HP for heating only and use other methods eg gas or very powerful separate electric system for the water.

GasPanic · 19/01/2024 15:42

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 14:08

@Rosesandstars
was discussing your post with my DH at lunch. He offers the following (apols for being long and digressing a bit but I agree with everything he says)

If your post said "AIBU to hate living in a cold house?" then no, (almost) nobody would like that. But you're not living in a cold house strictly because it's got a heat pump.

Consider this; if I said "AIBU to hate it when the food in my fridge goes off?", people might ask what the thermostat was set to, if the seals were damaged, if it had been cleaned recently. I doubt anyone would start ranting about heatpumps and how they don't work, because most people have experience of fridges, freezers or air conditioning. They all use the same basic technology and physical principles as the ones used to heat houses, but no-one complains about them because by and large they work as expected.

In Scandinavian countries, heat pumps are commonplace, normal, yet these are not places known for their mild winters. They demonstrably do work in cold conditions. So why is your house cold?

The simple answer is that whoever fitted the heatpump either didn't know what they were doing, or didn't care about whether the end result would be any good, or possibly both. If you want something or someone to hate, cowboy plumbers would be a good start.

The (rather) more complex answer is that gas boilers and cheap gas have allowed the building trade to be, for want of a better word, lazy. Most gas boilers are hugely oversized, outputs of 25-30kW are not uncommon (for reference, an ordinary hairdryer is 2-3kW). This is mainly so it can can heat water on-demand - so you can't "run out" of hot water - while avoiding the need to fit a tank. It's convenient for the user, but it also saves builders money (less plumbing, no tank). On top of that, builders don't need to size a heating system properly, they just chuck in a powerful boiler and let cheap gas do the work.

Hot water aside, almost nobody actually needs to pump 25kW into their homes, unless you like to set your thermostat at 28C or you live in an actual, literal mansion. But such high outputs (and the fact that gas has historically been so cheap) has meant builders can just install small cheap radiators with pipework barely big enough for drinking straws, buildings can be poorly insulated and leaky, and people just compensate by running their heating at 60-70C. This is not efficient even for a gas boiler, but again nobody cared because gas was cheap.

Our house is an unremarkable 15yo detached. It has cavity and loft insulation, but is by no means "super well insulated". The windows in particular were pretty draughty even when closed!
Our installer did a survey, got the dimensions and materials of the house, and got a heat loss calculation done for each room. Off that, we then sized the radiators for each room; the installer started off assuming a relatively low maximum flow temperature (eg 40C) since this is most efficient (aka uses least energy = cheapest to run). If what's there is already big enough, great. If not, you either need a bigger one, or you'll need to set a higher flow temperature. That will make your heatpump less efficient, but you'll save money on new radiators. Swings and roundabouts.

We ended up replacing a number of radiators, moving some around internally, and removing a couple as well. And installed a large water tank. It's taken some tweaking but the house is always a pleasant temperature, and our bills are lower than they were with the old gas boiler, while we are more comfortable and we've yet to experience a 'no hot water' situation.

If whoever did your install didn't do their due diligence and follow through on the necessary changes, you'll have a shit experience. Most commonly the radiators are left too small, meaning that there isn't enough surface area to transfer heat energy through. You can either crank up the flow temps (which will help but will cost a fortune, and still may not work that well) or freeze. Or in the longer run, you could consider getting a heating engineer to have a look at the system. It could be that you could change some of the radiators and have a system that would work much better.

Lots of people will say "I can't afford all this" and that's fair, this shit is expensive. There needs to be comprehensive support from government to get us off fossil gas. This also has to include planning rules, and training support for installers, since that is also a major bottleneck. Some people will say "I could afford it but I'll never make my money back". To those people I say "no, you probably won't". I've mentioned over and over how we are in this mess because many recently built houses have been built with an eye to making the most profit for the builder, not making them economical and comfortable to live in. Be angry with the large house builders, they have consistently lobbied governments for lax energy standards. They got the profits, we get the poorly insulated housing and high bills.

Separately there has been minimal support for people to make energy efficiency upgrades to older homes. What little there was got binned by Tory governments in 2012 or so. So now we have a huge backlog of housing stock that will need expensive retrofit to be able to use heatpumps economically.

Yes as a country we could just "stay on gas" for heating, but we don't want to be beholden to the likes of Putin or the Gulf states when it comes to energy sources. The UK has an outsize responsibility for historical emissions, particularly when we consider things like all the logging done in former colonies for the profit of Empire. So we really should be leading the way when it comes to getting away from it.

At the end of the day houses, like anything , are built to a price.

Expecting builders to put in unnecessarily expensive heating infrastructure 20 years ago on the off chance everyone might go over to heat pump technology and make them "heat pump ready" with the additional risk that that technology might actually not come in is pretty unrealistic. And I am pretty sure consumers would not want to pay for it, people are more interested in the bathroom, the number of bedrooms or size of the gardens, which often explains why new builds are fitted with boilers made by the lowest bidder (or at least were until energy bills started rocketing).

The "heat pump hate" that has been generated to me lies squarely at the blame of installers not installing the systems correctly. This seems to happen every time the government offers some sort of grant/subsidy. A load of cowboys enter the market who are just intent on hoovering up cash and who don't give a damn whether the customer gets a good install or not. It happened as well with insulation and I am sure it will happen with other things in the future - it always does where the government tries to hose down a problem with money.

Heat pumps "work" well in Scandanavian countries for a few reasons. One is because they have no cheap alternative to electric heating (other than wood, domestic gas is largely non existent). If people didn't have gas in the UK heat pumps would look a lot more attractive vs normal electric. Two their houses are better insulated so they use less energy anyway. Three their country is less crammed with people, so there is more space for GS rather than AS heat pumps, which are more efficient in colder countries because of the realtively invariant ground temperature and finally the pumps they do have tend to have better tech to cope with the low temperatures.

Most of our gas comes from domestic supplies and Norway. The middle east and Russia supply relatively little to us, although of course they do influence the market price.

GasPanic · 19/01/2024 15:49

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 15:24

As far as kWh of heat input to the house, you're completely correct. What I meant is the harder you push a heat pump, the less efficient it is. So we would use more electricity, as well as wearing out the compressor in the heatpump faster, if we tried to heat the house from cold, rather than just maintaining a comfortable temperature. This is one of the biggest differences between a gas boiler and a heatpump, you have to think about it quite differently.

Heat pumps are lower power than gas boilers. So it takes them longer to deliver the same amount of energy.

You can boost the power output of a heat pump, but only at the expense of efficiency.

And even in this lower efficiency high power output state, it still will not match the power output of a gas boiler.

WannabeMathematician · 19/01/2024 15:53

@CanadaNotAMum Most uk houses don’t have the heat pumps that cool because our pipes are not insulated in our wall to the extent needed to stop condensation. So for many house if you used that functionality it would lead to more mould. It’s another quirk of our building regulations.

I love our new heat pump. We use less energy heating our house 24/7 (though it does turn it def off and on as needed) then what we used with our gas boiler to heat our house for 5 hours a day. It’s the same price due to the difference in gas and electricity costs but I’m warmer and thus happier.

ClaudiaWinklepanda · 19/01/2024 16:07

Where are the large hot water tanks people are talking about?

Clearinguptheclutter · 19/01/2024 16:09

ClaudiaWinklepanda · 19/01/2024 16:07

Where are the large hot water tanks people are talking about?

ours is in the garage. Understairs cupboards/utility rooms are possibilities too. Yes it's harder if you aren't lucky enough to have the space and/or can only fit a smaller one.

CanadaNotAMum · 19/01/2024 16:48

WannabeMathematician · 19/01/2024 15:53

@CanadaNotAMum Most uk houses don’t have the heat pumps that cool because our pipes are not insulated in our wall to the extent needed to stop condensation. So for many house if you used that functionality it would lead to more mould. It’s another quirk of our building regulations.

I love our new heat pump. We use less energy heating our house 24/7 (though it does turn it def off and on as needed) then what we used with our gas boiler to heat our house for 5 hours a day. It’s the same price due to the difference in gas and electricity costs but I’m warmer and thus happier.

I’ve been digging into the differences a bit more, and I think it’s down to what we mean when we say “heat pumps”. Apparently in the UK, you tend to use air-to-water heat pumps. And I guess the water radiates heat through the floor or something.

In North America, we prefer air-to-air heat pumps. You can get mini split wall units (which is what I have) or it can have ducts that send warm (or cool) air that way. In Canada, we can’t use heat pump technology as our only heat source though due to cold snaps in winter where a heat pump is not designed to work well. But I’d say my mini split provides 100% of my heating in Oct, Nov, March, April, and probably 70% January-Feb overall in a Montreal winter.

Honestly, the air-to-water systems you have sound incredibly complicated and not great. The UK does not have extreme cold and it shouldn’t be this hard to design a heating system. IMO, you’d be better off with electric baseboards and investing in an air-to-air mini split for the main floor, but that doesn’t seem to be a thing.

Bramshott · 19/01/2024 16:55

ClaudiaWinklepanda · 19/01/2024 16:07

Where are the large hot water tanks people are talking about?

Ours is in the loft - it's the same one we had when we had our old oil boiler TBH.

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