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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

New build social housing

186 replies

mrsclaus1984 · 18/01/2024 12:59

Our house is currently on the market, and DH wants to arrange to view a house for sale on a new build estate. It’s around a year old, not totally brand new.

The house itself really is beautiful, but I’m reluctant because the adjacent road is full of social housing.

I have said to DH that I feel we should at least have a drive around the estate at a couple of different times of the day/evening to get a feel for the place generally, as well as the social housing roads, before arranging to view and potentially falling in love with the house without seeing the bigger picture.

I’m sure that there are many people in social housing who are great neighbours, but let’s face it these properties do come with problems at times and I would absolutely hate to live close to any issues.

has anyone else bought a home on a new estate and not had any problems with the social housing?

OP posts:
Charlie2121 · 20/01/2024 11:08

Locutus2000 · 20/01/2024 10:51

"experience shows the average social housing tenant is a less desirable neighbour than the average private owner"

What utter garbage.

Why do developers reduce the price of private houses next that are situated next to social housing then? Why even then are they always the last to be sold?

If it was a myth that there was a higher chance of anti social neighbours in social housing then surely some people would realise this and would snap up the cheaper property next to the social housing as soon as it went on sale. This never happens.

It is no great mystery. If you own something and have to fund it yourself then you’ll generally look after it better to help retain the value of your asset.

If you owned a 50k car would you park it overnight in a dodgy area? Probably not. If it was a hire care would you be anywhere near as cautious? Probably not as the hassle of it being damaged or stolen is far less painful than if you owned it.

JamJar59 · 20/01/2024 12:23

I was one of those people that bought a new house and the developers had to point out the social housing. At the time we thought “They’ve got to live somewhere and they’ll probably be grateful of a new build” but unfortunately our ‘virtues’ didn’t pay off as we were left living next to drug dealers and people screaming all hours of the day, and untidy front gardens. You can spot the social housing a mile off.

OP - You can either be virtuous and miserable or you can be smart and live in peace.

ButteryBiscuitBaseBiscuitBase · 20/01/2024 12:31

Alcyoneus · 20/01/2024 10:57

‘Utter garbage’ reflected in house prices, you mean. You pretending something doesn’t make it real. Two identical houses in an identical area, the one near social housing will always cost less than that one near privately owned homes.

It could simply be that house prices have been artificially increased to make the buyers feel like they're getting something extra special. Shelter really should not be that expensive and everyone has the right to a decent house, not just those that can't afford to pay the inflated prices.

Surgarblossom · 20/01/2024 12:37

I would rather live next door to social housing tenants than private renters. At least if you have a problem with Social renters you can contact the housing association and complain, they will generally do something private landlords usually wouldnt be bothered so long as the rent is being paid!

orthbern · 20/01/2024 12:40

@Surgarblossom
No they don't! We contacted the housing association countless time about drug dealers living in social housing next to us, as did everyone else on the street. Nothing was done, they had been moved countless times already and there was no one else to put them.
Someone was finally done when their house was set on fire..while their kids were in it

Alcyoneus · 20/01/2024 13:24

ButteryBiscuitBaseBiscuitBase · 20/01/2024 12:31

It could simply be that house prices have been artificially increased to make the buyers feel like they're getting something extra special. Shelter really should not be that expensive and everyone has the right to a decent house, not just those that can't afford to pay the inflated prices.

How do you artificially increase price of houses not near social housing vs those that are near social housing? How does that theory work?

ButteryBiscuitBaseBiscuitBase · 20/01/2024 13:28

Alcyoneus · 20/01/2024 13:24

How do you artificially increase price of houses not near social housing vs those that are near social housing? How does that theory work?

To give people like you the impression that their money can protect them from poor people.

Alcyoneus · 20/01/2024 13:42

ButteryBiscuitBaseBiscuitBase · 20/01/2024 13:28

To give people like you the impression that their money can protect them from poor people.

Ah so there is no thought, knowledge of theory behind it. You were just spiting nonsense. And now doubling down on it, making yourself look like an idiot. As you were.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 20/01/2024 15:43

Why do developers reduce the price of private houses next that are situated next to social housing then?

In a word: perception

Nobody pretends it's always fair, but you can't force people to buy a house where they'd rather not, and with a few exceptions for truly unusual properties "desirability" always involves price

ButteryBiscuitBaseBiscuitBase · 20/01/2024 15:46

Yes, love, I do understand it; I was being facetious.

Yes, those who are able to borrow money are happy to pay extra because they hope that by living further away from those in social housing, they can avoid perceived problems such as antisocial and criminal behaviour. Because they're willing to pay extra, sellers are happily charging more and therefore house prices are artificially raised and others are unfairly priced out. This is part of the reason for the housing crisis. I hope that clears it up for you.

Drosera · 20/01/2024 23:17

Hotchocolate2023 · 19/01/2024 21:11

To be fair, my parents worse neighbour is a 40YO woman with significant mental health difficulties and a drink problem. Her dad has a lot of money and his solution was to buy her a house, park her in it and leave her to it. Desperately sad but on one police visit they said it is actually quite common once you hit the really wealthy circles

I don't doubt it, but crime is higher on council estates. It's not even debatable.

Drosera · 20/01/2024 23:36

Personal crime

  • Social renters experience 40% more personal crimes within their neighborhood than owner occupiers regardless of where they live vii and specifically: an increased predicted number of theft from person and robbery victimisations viii;
  • 85% higher odds of assault in the night-time economy ix; and
  • nearly double the incidents of acquaintance violence than owner occupiers which has increased over time.
Household crime

Our analysis of crime survey data (from 1990s through to 2014) highlights that social renters experienced between double and 10 times the national average household crimes depending on their area of residence iii, and specifically:

  • 70% more household thefts;
  • 40% more criminal damage iii;
  • 50% more burglaries (including attempts); iv and roughly 40% more burglaries and household thefts than owner occupiers.
Anti-Social Behaviour (ASB)

Social renters have higher odds of experiencing or witnessing ASB xii by roughly:

  • 30% with regards to criminal ASB (this includes criminal damage/ graffiti, harassment/ intimidation, tohers using/ dealing drugs, dangerous dogs, and indecent sexual acts);
  • 20% with regards to inconsiderate social ASB (this includes inconsiderate behaviour, loud music/ noise, litter/dog fouling, nuisance neighbours, and begging/vagrancy/ homeless);
  • 40% with regards to vehicle related ASB; and
  • 20% with regards to ASB from groups hanging about.
www.ntu.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0028/480817/Should-you-accept-40-more-risk-in-social-housing.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiWwKv0jO2DAxXWQUEAHVP7Bl8QFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2JXFhXTL-QsezRIxmuTJWb
Drosera · 20/01/2024 23:37

I'm sure somebody will be along to say it was probs the accountant up the road committing all the burglaries. 😂

Wellhellooooodear · 20/01/2024 23:40

Don't touch it with a barge pole

Hotchocolate2023 · 20/01/2024 23:44

Drosera · 20/01/2024 23:17

I don't doubt it, but crime is higher on council estates. It's not even debatable.

Council estates mostly don't exist anymore for this reason. There aren't council estates here, SH is well dotted around. So my close there are 5 x 4 house terraces. 1 of each is social housing, the other 3 private. There was a massive shift from council estates many years ago and it's one thing R2B has helped with.

JenniferBooth · 20/01/2024 23:47

You know who it mostly affects when HAs move the druggies in...................the OTHER tenants.

JenniferBooth · 20/01/2024 23:49

It is no great mystery. If you own something and have to fund it yourself then you’ll generally look after it better to help retain the value of your asset

EXACTLY Yet i bet you (like many others on here) would argue against lifetime tenancies.

Drosera · 21/01/2024 00:04

Hotchocolate2023 · 20/01/2024 23:44

Council estates mostly don't exist anymore for this reason. There aren't council estates here, SH is well dotted around. So my close there are 5 x 4 house terraces. 1 of each is social housing, the other 3 private. There was a massive shift from council estates many years ago and it's one thing R2B has helped with.

Yes, I appreciate it's not an absolutely like for like comparison but I think it suggests that the occupants of social housing are much more likely to be problematic, even if the overwhelming majority are good people.

JamJar59 · 21/01/2024 07:17

Drosera · 20/01/2024 23:36

Personal crime

  • Social renters experience 40% more personal crimes within their neighborhood than owner occupiers regardless of where they live vii and specifically: an increased predicted number of theft from person and robbery victimisations viii;
  • 85% higher odds of assault in the night-time economy ix; and
  • nearly double the incidents of acquaintance violence than owner occupiers which has increased over time.
Household crime

Our analysis of crime survey data (from 1990s through to 2014) highlights that social renters experienced between double and 10 times the national average household crimes depending on their area of residence iii, and specifically:

  • 70% more household thefts;
  • 40% more criminal damage iii;
  • 50% more burglaries (including attempts); iv and roughly 40% more burglaries and household thefts than owner occupiers.
Anti-Social Behaviour (ASB)

Social renters have higher odds of experiencing or witnessing ASB xii by roughly:

  • 30% with regards to criminal ASB (this includes criminal damage/ graffiti, harassment/ intimidation, tohers using/ dealing drugs, dangerous dogs, and indecent sexual acts);
  • 20% with regards to inconsiderate social ASB (this includes inconsiderate behaviour, loud music/ noise, litter/dog fouling, nuisance neighbours, and begging/vagrancy/ homeless);
  • 40% with regards to vehicle related ASB; and
  • 20% with regards to ASB from groups hanging about.
www.ntu.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0028/480817/Should-you-accept-40-more-risk-in-social-housing.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiWwKv0jO2DAxXWQUEAHVP7Bl8QFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2JXFhXTL-QsezRIxmuTJWb

Can we not use facts and statistics please?

Now let’s get back to pretending that people living in social housing are just as - if not more - pleasant than people who own their homes through hard work.

Nofilteritwonthelp · 21/01/2024 07:20

Don't do it. Even if it's ok now, it's likely to go downhill in the next 10-20 years, plus no one else will want to buy your house if you want to sell unless it's very cheap

stomachameleon · 21/01/2024 10:26

@JenniferBooth I am a council tenant. I would argue against life time tenancies with no strings attached. I some council/ housing association properties are misused and under-utilised.

Ohhelpicantthinkofaname · 21/01/2024 10:36

The worst neighbours I ever had owned their house in a nice little village. They were awful, and I mean really awful. The husband is now in prison. Horrible neighbours can happen anywhere.

I live on a mixed owned/ HA estate now and it’s fine. The occasional argument in the road - but nowhere near as bad as my old neighbours in the nice village were, more entertaining than anything.

I don’t think it should necessarily put you off, but sensible to have a look around at different times of the day. While my estate is fine the new estate on the other side of town has had lot of issues as they moved a a lot of “problem” families there from what used to be thought of as the “rough” area of town. That area is now nice and quiet, but people who have bought nice new big detached houses on the other new estate are having a lot of problems with antisocial behaviour and are unable to sell. I would say that’s the exception not the rule though.

orangegato · 21/01/2024 10:55

Not a fucking chance. Leave it to the virtue signallers and go have a quiet life.

Not all in social housing are feckless jobless thugs, but all feckless jobless thugs are in social housing.

JenniferBooth · 21/01/2024 13:14

But surely y"all got what you wanted You wanted social housing to go to the most desperate. So dont whine when the reckoning has to be paid.

ThisOldThang · 21/01/2024 13:28

Off topic, but in Holland they got so sick of antisocial social housing tenants that they moved them outside town in buried shipping containers. Apparently it's worked quite well and the tenants prefer it because there aren't neighbours phoning the police every ten minutes.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/1490056/Dutch-yobs-banished-to-steel-container-homes.html

Holland's rowdiest housing tenants are being moved into steel container homes in a government crackdown on nuisance neighbours.

The reinforced houses, which resemble shipping containers, are to be built at sites on the outskirts of cities for residents who cause problems with noise, violence, drug abuse or untidiness.

"Nuisance neighbours" can be evicted from rented homes under existing law, but Dutch MPs say that this just shifts the problem onto the streets.

Politicians were prompted to find the fresh solution after a "neighbours from hell" television documentary, which starred the notorious Tokkie family, from Amsterdam, caused nationwide uproar.

The family's 20-year feud with neighbours has been marked by fights with baseball bats, guns and Molotov cocktails. During the show, cameras followed individual family members who live in a filthy, rubbish-strewn home.

At one point the family patriarch, Gerrie, 51, a tattooed, pot-bellied sewage worker who was the family's sole bread-winner, took to the street with a samurai sword to attack his neighbours.

His twin daughters, Natalie and Natascha, 21, had their own children taken into care. His eldest son, Wesley, 20, constantly claimed to be too sick to work while another son, Wimpie, 15, whiled away his life loitering in the local shopping centre. The fly-on-the wall show provoked widespread debate in Dutch society. The programme-makers were accused of glamorising anti-social families, while politicians were criticised for not tackling the problem.

The government turned to the container homes proposal after the success of a pilot scheme of four dwellings outside the medieval town of Kampen, in eastern Holland.

Each home has three basic bedrooms, a kitchen and a bathroom, and is supplied with heating, gas, electricity and hot water. Tenants who cannot afford furniture are given financial help to buy items second-hand.

Members of the first family to move in were so dirty that local shopkeepers kept air fresheners to hand lest any wandered in.

Anette Schlueter, a city housing adviser, described the family as being of "low IQ". She said: "They defecated all over their house, even in their fridge. They had no idea how to use a toilet and kept lots of animals. You can imagine what the smell was like and what they smelt like when they walked around.

"They need constant help from social workers and they have to be told all the time what the rules are and to stick by them. That is why things didn't work out with them in the regular home but did in the container home.

"I don't think we will ever see them leaving, because as soon as they go anywhere else the problems resurface. We tried once and it didn't work."

The advantage of grouping socially dysfunctional people together, she says, is that they can be easily visited by the police, social workers, or staff from other agencies, such as the department of employment.

Rent on the homes, which are run by a housing association that specialises in looking after families on low incomes, is €250 (£170) a month. Other residents include cocaine addicts, alcoholics, former tramps and people suffering psychiatric problems.

Most appear happy with their surroundings. Hank van der Kolk, 50, a crack cocaine addict, alcoholic and the longest-serving container tenant, has erected a wall to screen him from the rest of the compound. He has also built a patio and carried out other home improvements.

"I can't remember being a bad neighbour. I was evicted after they complained about my drug taking," he said, inhaling his second pipe of crack of the day. "I get by on benefits, and to be honest it's not so bad here."

Jan Jrootjen, a 66-year-old former tramp and alcoholic, said his only complaint was about the two heroin addicts living next door. "They make too much noise, they are always playing their music really loud and get on everyone's nerves," he said. "But other than that it's great here. They tried to move me, but I refused. I want to stay here until I die."

Ms Schlueter said that the Kampen authorities gave the land to the housing association at a time when there were no other houses near the site.

Since then normal houses had been built nearby, but because buyers knew that the container home residents were there already, there had been relatively little friction between the two neighbourhoods. Residents in adjacent streets did not wish to be named, but one said: "My family and I were pretty apprehensive when we moved in here but the container residents are really no bother.

"They keep themselves to themselves and don't trouble anyone. Of course they are social misfits, but they get on with their lives and don't bother us."

Andrew Smith, the former Work and Pensions Secretary, said last night that the Dutch plans sounded like an interesting experiment, which should be monitored by the British Government. "We do need to take tough action against anti-social tenants," he said. "This Dutch idea sounds well worth having a look at to see how it works in practice."

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