Not believing in marriage is a luxury belief

[ironorchids]

Is it me or are there a lot of men these days who disbelieve in marriage for various reasons at the expense of the women they are with who believe in it, want it and have wanted it their whole lives?

Whatever the various reasons they give for disbelieving in it, at the end of the day, it is a luxury belief for someone who will never ever have to worry about or to take on the risk of potentially getting pregnant, having to have months or years off work to recover, feed them from your body, or even risk being left holding the baby as you're the one physically pregnant, if their partner leaves?

Disbelief in marriage is a luxury, and it's usually (not always) when you are free from all that risk and have that luxury that you can afford to believe all the other reasons so many men give (at the expense of the women they're with) for not believing in it.

Just an alternate view, but in my circles growing up I would deem it the opposite.
People didn’t have the luxury belief of marriage as they had fuck all financially. Not homeowners, no significant loss of earnings, no pension contributions lost. So what’s the point.
I think being worried about marriage and its financial implications is quite a middle class thing.

I was the one who didn’t want to get married in my longterm relationship. I only did so in the end because my DP really wanted to. But, regardless of marital status when I had DS, I was never going to step away from my career or compromise my economic independence.

The marriages I know of where a couple have married after being together a long time, it’s n several cases been men desperate to marry before they have a child, apparently feeling vulnerable with regards to being unmarried fathers.

I’ve never been married before, but I’m a lone parent and I would never marry for this same reason.

I have never heard it in reverse where a man believes in marriage but the women they're with doesn't. Maybe I have a very biased perspective.

This is my situation I guess - I have no interest in ever getting married. My partner (and father of my child) would get married but respects that it's not what I want - and I've never hidden that.

I can't buy into this 'marriage safety net' narrative - I know too many married females who have been totally screwed over in divorce, dragged through family courts for years, made to sacrifice part of their pension etc. The best safety net is not to sacrifice your career/financial independence for anyone.

See above. I’m a woman and I didn’t want to marry, whereas my longtime DP did.

Sure, because if you've already had your children, are not planning on having any more, and now have some assets, it may be better not to get married and risk losing some of your assets.

But most of the women concerned would not have obtained as many assets after the breakup had they not been legally married.

I think the point here is that marriage is a very good idea for most women IF THEY ARE PLANNING TO HAVE CHILDREN WITHIN THE RELATIONSHIP IN QUESTION.

Wholeheartedly agree with this. Marriage only matters if there are assets, it’s very presumptuous to think people have owned homes, pensions and savings or if they do, that there’ll be worth enough for each party to live independently. Incidentally I think marriage should be abolished, then everyone would be compelled to take care of their own financial wellbeing.

marriage was invented to own and subjugate women and stop us having our own assets and possessions and for that reason I’m ideologically opposed to it (I’m female). As for why I live with my partner when we’re not married as a PP asks, well, I’m not sure why that’s difficult to imagine? I like his company and hanging out with him all the time, I eat better with him around because he does all the cooking, his presence just enhances my day to day life. Before we met I happily lived alone and happily would do again if we split, yes obviously sharing expenses makes things easier financially but that isn’t the reason.

Also, if you really want marriage, just make that crystal clear at the start. I told my partner on our first date that I don’t want marriage or kids so if he does, to move along. Yes of course people can lie and string you along but if you set your intentions out from the start you’re more likely to filter out time wasters or people not on your level. And if those intentions don’t translate to action, walk away.

Im a mum and never been married never want to be married.
Would i do it for financial security NO i have that already its a job.
I dont believe in relying on a man for financial security when i can do it my self.
What i have is mine and wont be split everything will and in my will be left to my son.
I dont rely on anyone that way i owe no one nothing.
I only have to read MN and its a shit show on marriage.
Im no ones property but my own.
I dont believe in chasing men for child payments you either want to be in a childs life or not i dont need pitty payments as i have us covered.
And i dont need a piece of paper to show i love someone.
I have seen to many marriages go up the creek and you pick up on a few things.

Everyone is different but thats what i think.

If it was a luxury belief you would see more people in higher socioeconomic classes not marrying before having children than those in lower socioeconomic classes. This is in fact the inverse of what is observed. The wealthier and more educated you are, the more likely you are to marry before having children, ergo it is not a luxury belief, indeed it is quite the reverse.

'The piece of paper' always comes up on these threads, like that's all it is lol.

If that's all it really was, no-one would mind getting married, would they?

Hope your DS likes the inheritance tax payment when the time comes. Every unmarried couple I know has property.

The worse off in the relationship won’t have any grounds for negotiating a settlement if they split up if they are not married. That is usually the woman. It’s naive to think anyone is better off being a single parent. You simply have no negotiating rights. Unless you are the rich one with all the assets you don’t want to share of course. It is, however, mostly men that hide assets. Some women believe not marrying is equality. For most it’s inequality.

Marriage - like alcohol consumption - is one of those issues where Mumsnet is so out of step with the opinion of the general female population that I sometimes wonder whether some of the posters are actually characters from a Jane Austen novel.

The idea behind luxury beliefs is that they are positions you hold which you don't yourself practice but by giving them currency other less affluent people are therefore injured by them. I think it was coined by Rob Henderson, who puts it like this:

'The original luxury belief is that family structure is unimportant, despite a vast body of research indicating that a stable two-parent home is one of the strongest factors for a child’s wellbeing and future.

Among U.S. college graduates, onlyy 25 percent think couples should be married before having kids. Their actions, though, contradict their luxury belief: the majorityy of American college graduates who have children are married.
Affluent people are the most likely to promote the view that marriage is unimportant, despite their behavior suggesting otherwise.
And they have assigned a lot of value to this nonjudgmental view, such that if you challenge it, many will respond defensively.
Upper-middle and upper-class people will say things like marriage is “just a piece of paper.” People shouldn’t have to prove their commitment to their spouse with a document, they tell me.
I have never heard them ridicule a college degree as “just a piece of paper.” Many affluent people belittle marriage. But not college. Because they view a degree as critical for their self-worth and social positions.
In fact, if you challenge the importance of college, many people will respond with anger. They hold the belief that college is good and are reluctant to part with it.'

www.robkhenderson.com/p/luxury-beliefs-are-like-possessions

Some women believe not marrying is equality. For most it’s inequality.

So very true 👏👏👏

There's always a handful of women on these threads who'll be better off not marrying, but it really is such a small minority.

The other point about luxury beliefs is that if you are wealthy, you can afford to put them into practice because your money will insulate you from the negative effects that less affluent people will experience.

There's always a handful of women on these threads who'll be better off not marrying, but it really is such a small minority.

But isn't that so depressing? Surely we want the next generation of women to seek security through education and a career rather than marriage?

If I owned significant assets, I certainly wouldn’t believe in marriage to someone who owned none, so I completely understand why a man who owned his house wouldn’t believe in marriage to a woman who didn’t own a property.

As it is, DP & I have been together for 20+ years and have no plans to marry. We are childfree by choice, both of us have good jobs, our mortgage is paid off, we are financially comfortable & we keep our finances separate. What would be the point of getting married?

I know a couple who never believed in marriage but who got a civil partnership when she had to take a second year off after maternity (due to redundancies in her industry.)

we had pizza in the park afterwards.

civil partnerships tend to iron out the feminist objections & are often chosen for those who don’t want traditional obligations.

e.g. To invite family that don’t get on with each other or to have 100 people when they are both introverts.

I think some men get away with stringing women along because some women let them. If you want to get married then don’t settle for less. No children before marriage, don’t become their live in maid, cleaner, cook and for gods sake don’t give up working. They have everything they want with the added bonus that they can walk away when it suits them without any legal ties whatsoever. And then the women is screwed!

Absolutely - have sadly known a couple of women where this has happened - 10 year plus relationships with no marriage & no kids then they split and both guys met & married their new wives within 6-12 months of meeting!

From my perspective, marriage isn't a religion, its a contract that you either agree or disagree with, but it's not something to believe in as it very much exists and there is proof of existence. If people view it this way, then I think it would help clarify what people actually want / where they are compatible.

Why would I get married to him? Things are perfectly good the way they are. Neither of us would gain or lose out by being married. We don’t need to prove ourselves to others.

If someone wants to get married, they need to be with someone who wants to get married too. They don't have to stay with someone who is clear that they don't want to get married and won't change their mind.

DH wanted to get married, I didn't but ultimately agreed because I love him and it meant a lot to him so did change my mind in the end. I'm now the higher earner but I have no regrets.

being married does not stop people having affairs

That all goes to hell in a handcart as soon as she has kids. The gendersexed pay gap kicks in on the first day of her first maternity leave when her drops by 10% because mat pay is only 90% of salary.

If a woman plans to have children, she should marry their father or second female parent (SFP) first. Mothers do vital work for both the father/SFP and the State by bearing and doing the bulk of raising children and they are wise to make sure that that work's value is reflected financially in the event of the relationship breaking down.