Languages in high school

[Elfstillhere]

DS is just about to pick his subjects in high school. He is aiming for banking, investments, software developer or something similar in IT.
I know he is only 13 and a lot can change by the time e goes to uni, but I worry he wants to drop languages completely and that will close a lot of doors for him in the future.

His options, except of English which is compulsory, are French and Spanish. His argument is that you can speak English pretty much everywhere so what's the point.

AIBU to encourage him to continue to learn one of the foreign languages? If so, which one would be more beneficial in the future in your opinion, French or Spanish?

I don't really have anyone in the real life to ask and I worry I'm unreasonable here and should let him choose whatever he wants.

I think learning another language, especially living near Europe, is a really good idea. French and Spanish are spoken in several countries.

European countries all ensure they teach, at the minimum, one foreign language. For example, where we live, kids learn English from the second grade, then their 3rd compulsory language (French, Spanish or Latin) in the 6th, and then a non-compulsory 4th language in the 7th or 8th. Even if we weren't living here, I would strongly encourage my kids to go as far as they can with another language. It gives them more opportunities for studying in the future, creates an interest in other countries and cultures and is really good for their brain.

You do realise that calling everything 'racist', 'colonialist' and whatnot waters down the the impact of actual racist and colonialist attitudes?
He isn't exactly wrong. People in other countries force themselves to learn English, whether they like it or not. Especially in developing countries because of the sheer opportunities. Most remote work opportunities require English, many countries offer degrees taught in English despite it not being a national language to attract international students, etc.

The downside is that he's competing with the entire world for English language opportunities. But he's not wrong in saying that not learning a second language is a big barrier. If your first language was something else, however not learning English is a much bigger barrier.

p.s. Am not white, Commonwealth citizen, speak 4 languages and learning a 5th 😁

His argument is that you can speak English pretty much everywhere so what's the point.

Actually not true at all. Well you can speak it, but people often won't understand or will judge you for being an ignorant British person.

As a tourist you can get served in tourist areas in English, you can get by in English in airports, you'll be fine in Amsterdam, Ireland, Australia, US, NZ and most of Canada, much of Africa and parts of Asia that were previously British colonies.

But if you want to go off the tourist trail or work abroad it will be beneficial if not essential to speak the language. Even in banks and other big institutions there's often a need to learn the language of the country it's based in as a condition of working there.

I have family in the Netherlands and only about half of them speak/understand English to a conversational level.

I would say it is pointless personally. I took German to A Level - I got a B and could hold basic conversation, but nowhere near fluent. 20 years later I can barely remember any of it. Unless you are going to continue learning the language past A Level, eg travel to that country regularly, use it in your job, practice regularly …… then it will all be forgotten pretty quickly. Far more useful to pick subjects related to the fields of work he is interested in.

I work in banking and the language I use most frequently other than English is French. Over the years I've actually used French a lot at work and although it isn't a requirement of my role, it certainly adds value and has opened doors for me.

By contrast, I've hardly used my Spanish. German would have been more helpful (but my German is pretty dire) especially in Swiss banking.

Most big banks/financial institutions have a very international employee base and being open to other cultures is vital, and having an understanding of other languages and/or countries (or indeed the challenges people face when communicating in non-native languages) is pretty much a given if you want to succeed.

Both ours dropped the language to concentrate on maths and science. Honestly it hasn't held them back. One has now learnt Spanish post graduating but more for fun. I think they are only useful if you want a career using them

French is easier, I studied both, and I say that because of Spanish radical changing verbs.

I got a job in a french bank. But it depends what he wants to do.

Ultimately I became a teacher of both languages and I would advise french. Spanish is popular because people think it's easier, but marking students' homework and now gcse's, they are labouring under a mistaken belief to claim so.

France is our closest foreign language neighbour and doing business in paris is closer and easier than in madrid. In my pre teaching career I was never required to do business with latin America.

Hope that helps.

I’m of the generation that had to do a language. My school did French, and I hated every lesson. It was so hard and I found the lessons so boring. I got a grade C and I’ve never used it since. I’ve only been to France a handful of times and my French is so poor that it’s just not particularly helpful (more of a hinderance really). I haven’t needed to use it in my day-to-day life at all so it definitely hasn’t opened up a whole world of possibilities. I’d say do a language if you’re interested, enjoy it and are thinking you might take it further. But I hated being made to do it and I’m sure I’d have got a better grade in something I had more interest in and was better at. Don’t make him do it if he really doesn’t want to.

Noooo! Stick with the ICT/finance based subjects, so many jobs on the market, great salaries and development opportunities. I have a French and Spanish degree and work in....ICT 🤣🤣

Depends on what he'd have to drop in order to take the language. If it's something he'd much rather do, then it would be better to do that.

My son faced that situation as he did want to study a language but didn't have enough options available to do it. We got round it by him doing an online GCSE language course outside of school, alongside his usual subjects. His school made special arrangements for him to take his exams there though (and did the same for several other pupils too). It got a bit stressful at times when the volume of work was high, but it worked out very well in the end

The really great thing is that it's now so much easier to learn immersively if you want to compared with when I was at school. You can change your phone settings, watch French movies with English subtitles, follow French language accounts on Twitter, access French websites and newspapers, YouTube etc.

It really helps. They are so lucky to be able to learn in the online environment and because of that, should be able to speed through the GCSE curriculum. They have so many opportunities and resources to read and listen.

Quite, the choose the options you're passionate about doesn't work- they do 8-10 GCSEs. I also think it's unhelpful to think 'what use will it be'. That isn't the point of education. We want to develop well rounded individuals who understand the world around them. Languages are a part of this.

Spanish is the more useful, surely. It’s spoken all over central and south America. I agree with other posters though. Unless you keep it up, languages just evaporate. I knew someone who was nearly fluent in German at 18, for example, and can now barely speak a word.

As with so many things, what really counts is passion. You never know, it might spark something. I’m a diehard Francophile, and always have been. Even as a kid I was reading Asterix comics, and to this day I love the old French films (Jules and Jim, The Rules of the Game, La Grand Illusion, etc). I bitterly regret not doing French at A-Level.

DS was absolutely far away from being racist there.

He's good at languages but doesn't particularly enjoy them, prefers maths and history.
I think the consensus is to let him choose what he wants. And I'm happy to do it, just didn't want him to miss anything in the future!

I would generally say Spanish is the most useful (in terms of numbers of people speaking it, travel etc). But yes if he wants to work in Finance, learn French! Useful in France, Switzerland, Belgium.

Does he only ever want to do banking with English speaking countries? Many people who he will be up against for a job will be very bright, with top qualifications, but will also speak two or more languages. They are more useful to employers, will be more employable and able to earn more.
Language GCSEs do not just teach you to ask where the beach is. They are academic, not just conversational. Many institutions value language learning as a complex and transferable skill in its own right. GCHQ actively recruits language graduates, for example. Employers also recognise the desire to communicate and look beyond our country. If your son wants to be a global citizen, working for global companies, he should learn a language.
Spanish is good for the person who mentioned dyslexia. It is phonetic and much easier than English.
The more useful language for him to learn depends on where he would be most interested to learn about/work in/trade with. There are millions of French and Spanish speakers, and learning either language opens doors.

I was really impressed by this guy a few months ago!

He points out that languages are now much easier to learn, and we can get to intermediate level in 150 hours.

There are three tricky languages I'd like to learn for friendship and professional reasons and he makes it sound possible!

https://mazmhussain.substack.com/p/how-to-teach-yourself-a-new-language

I've done italki recently for a very unusual language. You Skype/Zoom with a native speaker in the country. So you earn culture as well as language. The teacher gave me really good advice about what to talk about with locals. I impressed one bloke so much he told everyone about it later.

A quick Google will tell you that everyone doesn’t speak English. Not by a long shot. And there is nothing worse than doing business with someone who can’t even manage a few words, greetings, please, thank you, in the language of the country and people you’re working with. There is a now ancient episode of the Apprentice where the smallest amount of French shows how doors open and the lack of it shuts them.

Is MFL an essential GCSE? No. It is, however, a subject favoured by admissions tutors if his future career plans involve getting onto a particularly competitive university course. It will keep the full range of doors open for him but I don’t think the lack of it necessarily closes any doors. You mention banking in which case I would suggest it would be helpful. However, wanting to do it is half the battle so if he’s dead against it, I wouldn’t subject the teacher to someone who can’t be arsed. It’s hard enough without that.

Personally, I prefer Spanish but French is spoken the world over and is an official language of most international organisations (UN, UNESCO etc etc). Either would help with learning the other should they become essential for career advancement.

Ok, so first off all this ‘high school’ terminology is not the norm. We go to secondary schools and we pick GCSE options. In a decent school they will try to organise it so that aT least one language (other than English) is the norm. If they don’t be careful you are not at some place where duff options are on offer. Business studies, Food Tech instead of a language might be how it sits - if it is then it’s very clear what you should choose

I didn’t do a language gcse and regret it a little bit, but if he doesn’t want to it’s probably not worth forcing and there’s always the opportunity to learn when he’s older if he wants.

The poster may be in Scotland.

I agree with you. I am saddened that he thinks it is OK to be the typical Brit abroad. Of the two pick which one he would be most likely to use- I had a relative in France when I was growing up, hence my siblings and I learning French not Spanish.

I've just been reading this tread back and can see some really interesting assumptions revealed which I'd love to understand better - such as it being straightforward to learn a language later on if a young person changes their mind.

We can, but we can learn much more quickly when we're young. It's harder to get the accent right in adulthood, and hard to carve out time after work. And learning young makes international exchanges and working abroad during the college/early training years much more feasible.

I don't think people say the same about children learning football - that they shouldn't be pressured to run around a cold field on Saturday mornings and can take it up at secondary school if they feel like it.

Or swimming - there is a cultural norm that it is important to learn, which we rationalise as being to save our lives for when we fall into a canal.

Being culturally-adept, even without real fluency, can also be life-saving.

I see the same attitudes to learning a musical instrument. I'm not sure how best to counter the assumption that it's too hard/boring/pointless/up to the child/we can learn 'later on'.

I dont think French or Spanish will open any doors to careers these days. Arabic, Mandarin or Russian are really the only ultra desirable languages which properly open doors.

I speak French fluently but have never used it, even when I lived and worked in France as I worked in an international company and a job where we dealt in English.

I have lived in 4 countries and never had any issues getting a job until the present one, where Arabic would have been helpful.