to think it is an outrage that when I go back to work after a second baby it is CHEAPER for me to get a nanny to look after them both than put them the nursery up the road!!

[sophiebbb]

I told my dad that the other day and he was flabberghasted.....

PS I live in London

I think there are more outrageous things in the world, tbh.

DO you really? That we don't have decent and inexpensive provision for childcare provision in this country so women can afford to go to work for 2-3 days a week???

time to xenia arriving...........

I don't think it's an outrage, just that nurseries are generally profit-making as well as being pretty expensive to run.
The nursery where my dcs go is a non-profit making workplace nursery but it still takes up most of my (perfectly decent) salary. Unfortunately childcare is just very, very expensive....

Of course, one could read your post and say 'yes, it's an outrage how badly nannies are paid'

But shouldn't we be encouraged to go back to work by state supported nurseries?

I do think we should have more tax relief on childcare, personally. What with it being a necessity rather than a luxury!

just look at everything else state suppported..............and then tell me you would be ecstatic to put your babby in a state nursery. Could be lovely - could be terrible. You get what you pay for - apart from in London where you get ripped off regardless

I was a nanny in Berlin, and discovered that the very, very lovely nursery my charges went to costs between 40-400 euros a month fulltime, dependant on parents income. Apparently that's how all the nurseries operate. If they can do this in other EU countries then why not here?

Conversely, I know people who pay £8 an hour for a cleaner or gardener and only £3-4 an hour for childcare for the most important thing in their lives.

Childcare is expensive yet childcare workers are low paid

I couldn't afford childcare for 2/3 DC so we have brought it inhouse (aka me being a SAHM)

State funded nurseries here in northern italy are generally lovely, but not enough to cover the needs of working parents. There are very few in the South and Italy is the country with the lowest rate in Europe of women returning back to work after having children.

(the number of nurseries is not enough etc etc. not that they aren't lovely enough

Nurseries have huge overheads (including buildings, utility bills, cooks, insurance, cleaners, maintenance) so it's not really that surprising.

I did the same thing when DD2 came along, and yet the nanny I employed two days a week was working for me because I paid so much better than her other job as a nursery nurse in a primary school reception class.

Yep, in an ideal world we would all be Swedish and have fabulous state sponsored high quality nurseries so we would be able to return to the workplace on an equal footing with the men and so be free of working mother's guilt, whilst we earn almost the same as our hubbys.

Unfortunately we keep voting in politicians who promise to lower our taxes and not raise them (which is what we would need) and as a result we live in very capitalist unequal society where mums get the rotten end of the deal (along with any number of other groups who weren't lucky enough to be born either v rich or v clever)

But at least we don't have to listen to Roxette.

"But shouldn't we be encouraged to go back to work by state supported nurseries?"

No.

However, I think there is an argument for greater state support of parents of young children in an economy where two incomes are necessary to guarantee a decent standard of living.

sorry, OP, I don't understand why you think it is "outrageous" that childcare is so expensive? Why should someone who looks after your loved, precious children should earn signficantly less than you (or me, for that matter!)? I don't understand why parents seem resentful about paying a good wage to someone else to look after their little ones.

sophiebbb, that is how it works sadly. I am in London as well.

There are a few tricks of the trade ...

If you space the babies out more than 2 years' apart, the fees for the first will fall by a few hundred quid after 2. Most nurseries will offer a sibling discount - but usually not particularly significant 10%?. You can use childcare vouchers for most nurseries (not sure whether you can use them for nannies, but if so, not every nanny will be acceptable under the scheme without going through a few hoops) - saves more than £100 a month for a top rate tax payer. Also, once the first reaches 3, they are eligible for the surestart grant which reduces the burden by about £100+ a month.

And before you know it, the first will be in school (can be as early as 3+ if your borough accepts them from nursery).

I find that with all these added together, the tipping point comes at 3 children, rather than 2. hth

to the Roxette point Squiffy.

Personally I think that redresses the balance for a lot of the Sewdish positives...

I don't think it's that bad. And I agree with Anna, why do we need to be encouraged to go back to work?

oh just get a nanny and stop moaning

sophiebbb, I feel your outrage at the costs of childcare. I was flabbergasted at it as well. I did not grow up in UK and comparing with where I was from, I realised that the standard of childcare and expectations are much higher in UK (many might disagree but I am comparing with where I am from). The 1-3 staff-child ratio for a nursery is a pretty good ratio, for example. Nannies and childminders are frequently required to have qualifications and are treated like professionals.

Having said that, there is a case for more state subsidy in the form of higher tax credits, childcare vouchers, subsidies to nurseries for their operating costs. Child benefit can go up (and I believe will go up a little from the last budget), but I am not in favour of it going up by too much because as a universal payment, it is not linked to at least one working parent.

it's surely only an outrage because you think a nanny is something that 'posh' people have

I have a friend who had one who is a teacher

if it's the best fit for childcare what's the problem? to be honest I would rather have a nanny than nursery in the early stages, but I never worked enough days for it to be an issue

Agree with blueshoes that expectatations of the standard of childcare (and hence the cost) are very high in the UK relative to much of ROW.

However, I think that the professionalisation of childcare (qualified nannies etc) is a very good thing for women.

Here in Germany we pay 380 euros for our DCs nursery, 2nd child is free. And that is us being in the highest income bracket. The fees start at 50euros.

Still difficult to work full time though as the kindergarten shuts at 4.30pm.

I agree with whoever said that we pay more for cleaners than childcare workers.That seems outrageous. People often seem to be trying to economise on childcare,which I admit is expensive,but as is often said children are our most precious possessions surely?
As my Gran used to say 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys'!