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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Emergency advice needed, relative's life depends on it

147 replies

fkthesystem · 04/01/2024 06:55

I'm sorry to be posting here but I'm in such desperate need of advice that I need the traffic. I'm also sorry it's long.

My grandmother has had a government funded place in a care home for the last four years. She is kept there under a DOLs following having been sectioned for self-neglect as a result of a combination of severe mental health issues triggered by Alzheimer's (and now, four years later, the Alzheimer's has started to progress). She has never had an estate or assets to pay for care and we as a family don't possess the means either.

Her behaviour over the four years has admittedly been challenging at times (rudeness, biting, etc) but DGM is <5' and genuinely not a physically intimidating person, even if she can be difficult. However her behaviour as she's deteriorated both physically and mentally, so over the last 18 or so months, has improved and she is mostly co-operative with the care home staff nowadays with some encouragement.

As far as we have been made aware, her care needs up until the last couple of months were mostly showering and encouragement to keep sanitary. She has only very recently required assistance with changing her own pads (we don't know if she doesn't recognise or doesn't care when she sitting in mess). She was fully mobile and didn't require any special diets.

A few weeks ago we were alerted that she hadn't appeared herself and hadn't eaten, however we weren't told until end of play on the third day that this was occurring. We said we wanted her to see the GP the following day as a matter of urgency, and the GP prescribed antibiotics for a UTI. The home were calling my DM on a daily basis saying DGM was refusing to take her tablets or drink, as well as still refusing to eat. DM was going over daily and getting her to drink at least a cup of water and take her tablets without much difficulty, just a lot of prompting. The staff said they didn't have time to sit and prompt her to drink.

On the fourth day they called my DM and said DGM suddenly couldn't swallow fluids and that they'd called 999 because they were concerned she might choke. My DM took emergency leave and raced over there, to find no issues with her swallowing, no signs of a stroke, etc. DM had told the home she was prepared to take DGM to A&E herself due to the ambulance wait times, and so before DM even got there, the home had cancelled the ambulance. DM called me while she was there as my partner is a paramedic, and the staff outrightly refused to speak to him saying they didn't care what he had to say and wanted her to go to A&E. There was also a doctor from the surgery at the home when the swallowing difficulty occurred and the home reported that the GP refused to see DGM because "she'd be assessed at hospital". DM ended up taking her.

On assessment at A&E, they found urine burns so severe that they immediately safeguarded the home and made an in patient referral to one of the dermatology teams. They said they'd never seen damage like it. She has since been kept in hospital on IV antibiotics for the UTI. They have also had SALT in who have advised DGM appears to be having difficulty swallowing food which is why she hasn't always been eating and now requires a softer diet.

A few days ago they declared her fit for discharge, however the home said they wanted to make an assessment first. DM asked what they meant and they said they needed to see whether she required a hospital bed and whatnot first, fine. However last night they called DM to say they refuse to have her back on the basis she now needs nursing care, and that was that.

Having to stay in hospital for a prolonged period of time whilst another care facility is found, and then the upheaval of moving to a new home/unfamiliar environment is legitimately going to kill DGM. I know what you're probably thinking, "why would you want her to go back to somewhere that let her get to that state?" and whilst I do completely agree that their care was, at least on this occasion, awful, I am also aware of how difficult a change in routine is for DGM's mental state. The hospital were going to discharge her with District Nurse support as well as regular SALT input/review and OT.

We are in shock that the home can refuse to have someone back when no alternative plan is in place, and thus she can be left in hospital unnecessarily. We believe the safeguarding made against them and the complaint my DM has made about the whole situation has basically made them not want her back now.

We genuinely don't even know where to start with getting help now. We don't know who to call to find her somewhere else because she is public funded, we don't know if there's anyone we can call who is able to force them to take her back temporarily with additional external support in place, we don't know if we should be phoning someone like the CQC or a solicitor or something as the impression we've been given my the hospital is her UTI likely stemmed from the same circumstances that lead to huge skin damage from urine burns.

Please help with any experience/signposting.

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 04/01/2024 07:34

You need to talk to the hospital social worker. Ring the ward and ask the discharge coordinator if one has been allocated.

I saw your comment about a stay in hospital being likely to kill your GM. I get that hospital is an awful place especially for someone with dementia, but it really shouldn't kill her and so far they have sorted out quite a lot of issues which badly needed looking at. What makes you so very worried about the hospital? Are you more worried in fact about your Mum?

fkthesystem · 04/01/2024 07:38

LeroyJenkinssss · 04/01/2024 07:08

the home are right in that they can refuse a patient back if needs have changed sufficiently. It’s fairly common and there will be a discharge coordinator and social worker who will look into state funded care. She will remain in hospital until a suitable placement is found. as it state funded, you aren’t likely to have a huge amount of choice in picking the home.

having had a safeguarding concern raised against them, I can understand the home going by the book and doing a reassessment of care needs. Does anyone have an LPA for health & wellbeing?

No LPA, DGM never thought she would need one when it was discussed with her and then she quite suddenly got sectioned.

OP posts:
anothernamechangeagainsndagain · 04/01/2024 07:40

Needing the change settings is common in elder care when support needs change. Sometimes it is a different floor of the same building but I know many who have moved completely

fluffygardenrugs · 04/01/2024 07:43

I have a little experience in this and would say the care home is correct. It does sound as though she needs nursing care and honestly, while hospital is disorienting for her, she's going to be much better off there than she will be in a place that can't adequately look after her (even more so if they're under review).

Does she have a social worker? Although nursing care beds are in short supply, the 'bed blocking issue' (e.g elderly people effectively stranded in hospital while suitable accommodation can be found) is a biggie and you need someone fighting for you to help get your gran settled elsewhere. If for some reason she doesn't have a social worker, do get onto Adult services via your local council and have a good chat.

For what it's worth, a friend was in a similar situation with her mum. Her mum's Alzheimer's had deteriorated to the point of needing to be sectioned. The care home couldn't meet her needs any longer and the poor lady was stranded in hospital for a couple of months, but they eventually found a place for her in a lovely specialist unit, where she remained until she died.

As others have said, channel your energy into finding a good new space for your gran rather than ruminating on what the care home did. Wishing you success and a speedy resolution.

fkthesystem · 04/01/2024 07:44

widowtwankywashroom · 04/01/2024 07:14

It's not for you to decide what care needs other residents have or don't have.

Another resident being bedbound isn't a judgement, I was stating a fact. I haven't come here to argue, I'm trying to gain clarity on a situation that has gone from 0-100 literally overnight. I had Googled the differences between nursing and care homes and one of the things mentioned was significant lack of mobility, therefore I was acknowledgjng from a mobility perspective there are other residents there who are still suitable, however I did also acknowledge I appreciate it's about more than just mobility.

OP posts:
LilyDough · 04/01/2024 07:45

The care home are correct her needs have changed.

HJ40 · 04/01/2024 07:46

I know you're packining but I please take a breath and try and think rationally. She is in hospital, she is safe. And by the sounds of it far better being looked after than she was in the home. It is not an emergency.

starrylights · 04/01/2024 07:46

There will be a discharge social work team based at the hospital, I would ask for there contact details and make contact.
The care home can do this and reading between the links there has been a decline in physical health when linked to your family members mental health are created at situation where they can't care for her safety.
You suggest your DM was able to get her to take her meds and drink, I can imagine a carer has a number of people to support with meds, so doesn't have the time your Mum does.
This whole situation is about money and funding, the current care home potentially could keep caring for you mum, but it sounds like she needs more care time/ funding.
This could be why other people at the home have higher physical needs, they get more money for them or equally it could be that they aren't great at caring for people with MH needs.

HJ40 · 04/01/2024 07:46

*Panicking 🤦‍♀️

Bexlily · 04/01/2024 07:54

The home will be registered for certain levels of care, if your GM needs have changed it is possible that they are not registered for the type of care she needs and therefore they can't accept her back.

It is a very common occurance, I hope your GM isn't in hospital too long and a suitable Nursing Home can be found.

fkthesystem · 04/01/2024 07:55

NestaArcheron · 04/01/2024 07:23

They are absolutely correct in saying your grandmother is not suitable for their care, she needs a nursing facility.
When you say she needed a soft diet and found this out in the hospital, the care home had been flagging she was struggling to swallow but when your mum went to assess she decided it was fine and just needed to be promoted. They have been telling you that there are issues and they've not been taken seriously.
Honestly, unless you have tried to provide care for patients who bite you, and hit you, and refuse to swallow, it really doesn't matter if they are below five feet. It's not their fault, they are confused and distressed and it is heartbreaking to see - but there comes a point that when needs cannot be met certain patients need specialist care.
You need to contact social services who will be able to assist you with a more appropriate setting.

I just want to clarify that they haven't been telling us that there are issues that we haven't been acknowledging, please don't twist it that way. They called my DM as an emergency one day and stated DGM had suddenly developed an inability to swallow and that they had called 999 for an ambulance because it had come on out of no where and they thought she would choke. She went straight over and found she was drinking, and then took her to hospital there and then herself anyway. This is also why I tried to get them to speak to my partner whilst DM was there so that he could get some more history to differentiate from something acute like a stroke or something progressive like her Alzheimers but they refused. That is the one and only time we have been told anything about swallowing.

OP posts:
Sirzy · 04/01/2024 07:56

You need to take a step back and ask yourself what you’re actually fighting for?

do you want to fight to keep her somewhere that has clearly stated they can’t meet her needs or do you want to fight for her to be in the best place to care for her moving forward?

Hatsforcats · 04/01/2024 07:59

OP - someone is automatically eligible for s117 aftercare following detention under section 3 MHA. They should have an aftercare plan identifying their needs and if/what services would be funded to maintain and meet their mental health needs. S117 funding cannot be withdrawn until formally reviewed and revoked. Without getting technical, the reality of this being withdrawn for someone with a progressive condition I.e. dementia, is highly unlikely as its not a curative condition.
So unless your GM has had this formal s117 review and revoke process - she remains eligible.
The responsible funding authority will need to locate and commission a placement (existing or new) as they provide funding so they need to agree / set up contracts etc etc. If nursing care is needed, this element can only be agreed and legally funded by health (ICB).
Presuming s117 funded - family can choose a placement however, if local authority locate a more cost effective rate that can meet needs, the individual/ family can pay the difference (top up) to have the placement of their preference. Entirely depends on placement availability, needs and individuals financial circumstances.

I can guarantee that the hospital will have some form of attached social care team / process meaning referrals should be going in asap to sort out future place of care. All agencies know hospital isn't the best place for individuals so will be working as quickly as they can (probably a lot behind the scenes) to reach a resolution about what's happening. Make sure the treating ward know that your GM has local authority funding - they need social care input as families cannot agree funding on local authority / ICB behalf.

There may be opportunity for resolution with her current placement, but it really does depend on what her needs are now and ensuring it's the best thing for your GM and the care home. Whilst a move is never promoted, sometimes it is the best thing if the current home cannot give the right type and level of care needed. Hang tight OP - you shouldn't be left to deal with this alone. Good luck

fkthesystem · 04/01/2024 08:00

widowtwankywashroom · 04/01/2024 07:23

OP with all due respect, your title is misleading.
Discharge co-ordinator and social workers are probably just returning to work. Believe me, once fit for discharge there will be a lot going on in the background sourcing alternative providers.

In what way is it misleading? I'm grateful to those who have clarified why nursing care is necessary now (mostly related to swallowing), but the reality of that is going to be devastating and I am genuinely disappointed that there isn't anything that can be done to allow her to return "home" because it really is going to kill her in that she will not mentally cope with going elsewhere. It's the truth.

OP posts:
Babyblackbear78 · 04/01/2024 08:01

Sirzy · 04/01/2024 07:56

You need to take a step back and ask yourself what you’re actually fighting for?

do you want to fight to keep her somewhere that has clearly stated they can’t meet her needs or do you want to fight for her to be in the best place to care for her moving forward?

This ^^

Residential care homes and nursing care homes are different. Just because some people are bed bound doesn’t mean their care needs are greater. They may have needs that can be met by the home and with the funding they receive, where as they are saying they can not meet the needs of your loved one.

You need to concentrate your efforts on getting a social worker.

(I appreciate how challenging and upsetting this all is)

fkthesystem · 04/01/2024 08:02

Sirzy · 04/01/2024 07:25

District nurses aren’t going to be sent in just to keep an eye on tbings. Like most services they are stretched the the brink!

Don't get me wrong I imagine it would have been to make sure her wounds are healing, but simultaneously that would be to also make sure they weren't getting worse because they weren't being kept on top of.

OP posts:
fkthesystem · 04/01/2024 08:03

FlabMonsterIsDietingAgain · 04/01/2024 07:34

There is often a social worker employed and working within the hospital, if you look up the hospital that your Gran is in, do they have anything on their website that gives you contact details?

I will have a look, thank you.

OP posts:
catsanddogsandrabbits · 04/01/2024 08:08

The home were correct not to speak to an unknown person who said they were a paramedic about your DGM without her consent. Of course they were. Also it seems sensible to cancel a GP appointment if a patient is going to A&E. Homes have to call 999 as a matter of protocol in these situations. Swallowing difficulties can present suddenly.

It's not for you to decide what nursing care the other residents might or might not need. Nor for you to decide what your DGM needs and if the staff can provide it. The care home will have procedures - and they have looked at your DGM's needs and said they are no longer able to meet them. It sounds as if this is correct.
There will be problem finding a new home - there is simply not the funding or the places but we have a society that prioritises other things.

Good luck with your DGM's care. I've been through this too and it's horrible.

fkthesystem · 04/01/2024 08:09

PermanentTemporary · 04/01/2024 07:34

You need to talk to the hospital social worker. Ring the ward and ask the discharge coordinator if one has been allocated.

I saw your comment about a stay in hospital being likely to kill your GM. I get that hospital is an awful place especially for someone with dementia, but it really shouldn't kill her and so far they have sorted out quite a lot of issues which badly needed looking at. What makes you so very worried about the hospital? Are you more worried in fact about your Mum?

The hospital have been very supportive, I'm not concerned that they aren't looking after her or anything. Obviously being in hospital she is at risk of hospital acquired infection and general deterioration from not being able to get up and about. It's not so much the hospital stay that will kill her as it is about having to be moved to another home, that's what will do it. She's already told my mum she was dying and didn't think she'd come out of hospital, having to go elsewhere rather than back to where she knows will legitimately make her give up.

I am worried too about my mum though because she is really struggling to deal with all of this and the situation of having to find her somewhere else on top as well is going to be a huge stress for her.

OP posts:
Doyouthinktheyknow · 04/01/2024 08:09

The care home clearly can’t meet your dgm’s needs as she developed serious urine burns so she does need to move.

It’s not unusual for needs to change and patients to be stuck in hospital while alternatives are sourced. It can take a while best least she is safe in hospital and her needs are met.

MaryHinges · 04/01/2024 08:09

I understand it is quite distressing but I do feel the title is a little misleading as she is safer in hospital and getting better care than the home were providing. Her life clearly does not depend on emergency advice while she is safe and cared for but there obviously is a new situation here to navigate. There do seem to be separate issues at hand.

Speaking to a solicitor about her being allowed to fall into such neglect is one issue but the home can not be forced to take her back, even temporarily. The situation regards her skin nay prove difficult if her own lacking in cooperation has been a factor and she has just not allowed herself to be changed regularly enough. It does sound that staff have found her far more difficult than her family for some reason, that may well be a time issue. It may be they have struggled with her for some time.

The hospital themselves will be working behind the scenes to find appropriate care settings and I would be speaking to the discharge coordinator about social services involvement in that. Forget the idea of getting her back to the same home, that simply isn't going to happen if they feel they can no longer manage her care. Unfortunately as confusing as it may be, you are going to be looking at a new home or potentially long hospital stay. Obviously it is in the hospitals long term interest to find a new home but they won't be expecting your mother to do that for them.

kweeble · 04/01/2024 08:11

The hospital social workers should help you identify nursing homes that will take her. You may not have a choice as the hospital bed is needed for others so have a look yourself if you can do.
I can’t see the point of litigation - it’s just more stress and you can’t force the home to take her back.
As you feel strongly, raise the poor standard of care at the home with the CQC.

fkthesystem · 04/01/2024 08:14

Sirzy · 04/01/2024 07:56

You need to take a step back and ask yourself what you’re actually fighting for?

do you want to fight to keep her somewhere that has clearly stated they can’t meet her needs or do you want to fight for her to be in the best place to care for her moving forward?

I want the best care, of course I do, but I'm also trying to make sure I see it from DGM's perspective and that is that a huge upheaval of what is effectively her entire life will be far more traumatising for her than sub-par care. There is no winning in this situation because of the nature of it, I just want whatever will be more comfortable for DGM to tolerate and I genuinely believe that is remaining where she is, even though it clearly isn't the best care. But I take note that they have the right to do what they've done and why they've probably taken that decision.

OP posts:
Youcannotbeseriousreally · 04/01/2024 08:14

I’m sorry this is happening but it’s quite simple really. By the sounds of it , she was in a residential home before. They were clearly not meeting her needs ( they got safeguarded) now she needs a nursing home to meet her needs so of course they won’t have her back, they don’t have the resources to care for her and their CQC registration would be at risk if something bad happened.

It sounds like her entire care package needs a review but in the meantime, they can’t move her anywhere until a suitable home is found.

unrsnblyannoyd · 04/01/2024 08:15

Sorry OP haven't read the whole thread but speak to the nurse in charge of the ward and request a referral to the hospital social work team and the discharge Co-ordination team x