Technology is making us less human

[Arseulaundress]

I think we are becoming more and more like machines. The poor manners often described on here are a product of an increasing enmeshment with technology that is helping to isolate people, and is breaking down the connections that keep societies civil. People interact less and less, and they see and/or contribute to the nastiness online that comes from not being face to face. That sort of discourse is becoming normalised.

AI is going to make humanity obsolete - and far quicker than you think. We are sleepwalking into this, as with so much else.

Are any of you, like me, thinking about how to detach from technology? What are you thinking of doing? What might help us love our humanity more, instead of seeing it as a bug that needs fixing? What is behind this race to deny our humanity?

AIBU?

What is it that makes us human? Is it manners? Social interaction? I'd say there's an argument to be made that technology enables interaction. Perhaps it's a different form of interaction, but that's how humans evolve.

I've recently been writing a paper on the origins of spoken language, and I read a paper which suggested that there may be three stages in the evolution of language. The first being a proto-language which was used by our early hominid ancestors, the second stage being where we're at now and how we currently use language, and the third stage is AI. So maybe the advancement in technology is just natural human progression and evolution?

Having said that I do share some of your concerns with AI. I'm a bit of a technophobe so an increasingly technologically dependant society does intimidate me a bit, but I also believe this is just evolution.

I think it’s more likely that e.g. social media simply provides us with more exposure to the sorts of people who struggle with social skills and appropriate behaviour, who we usually wouldn’t engage very deeply with in day to day life because of their difficulties and isolation.

In terms of AI taking over, tbh I’m not terribly bothered about becoming obsolete. I’ll be obsolete so I won’t know about it.

People decried the wax-cylinder record player as being the death of the music industry, which only existed in sheet-music or live forms. Technology marches on and people adapt.

On the contrary - technology is revealing the worst of human nature by removing the barriers to behaving that way.

To treat "humanity" as some sort of ideal, gentle, nice way of existing is a conceit only borne by...privileged humans. The reality is somewhat different, otherwise we wouldn't be embracing the absolute worst of our impulses; as soon as there are no immediate, physical consequences to behaving poorly, tens of millions of humans do exactly that.

Far from making us less human, technology is showing us what "being human" really is - nasty, messy, dirty, tribal behaviour free of empathy for anybody we see as "other".

I agree with everything you say.

I always try to interact with a human rather than AI at say, the bank or the supermarket and I have taken to shopping in person in the high street, for insurance as well as other things.

I think we can fight back but yes you are absolutely right about society becoming more unpleasant. However, I don't know whether it's an AI thing or a Covid thing. What I have definately noticed is that young people age range 17-20, who missed a lot of school due to the lockdown, have got awful manners and social skills. Lots of them work in fast food outlets and seem to struggle with the most basic of things. It's sad.

People decried the wax-cylinder record player as being the death of the music industry, which only existed in sheet-music or live forms. Technology marches on and people adapt.

Ah, but the difference between the record player and a supercomputer is that the record player didn't threaten to eradicate humanity. To truly understand the implications of the creation of a supercomputer, have a read of this - a two parter - but it isn't for the faint-hearted: https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html?utmsource=bento&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=automation&bento_uuid=7059f5d1-6b72-4079-a0a0-4d0cb1e1b8f1

I don't know whether it's an AI thing or a Covid thing. What I have definately noticed is that young people age range 17-20, who missed a lot of school due to the lockdown, have got awful manners and social skills.

You make a good point. I think we don't really know how badly covid messed things up yet. One thing I think was clear about covid - it shows how quickly humans give up their freedoms out of fear. It certainly moved us closer to technology, with the vaccine passports etc.

On the contrary - technology is revealing the worst of human nature by removing the barriers to behaving that way.

I think humanity is a mixture of good and bad, yes, and technology seems to be ushering us towards a nastier version of ourselves. This is what I meant in the OP. Because we interact less and less with actual humans (who might punch us in the face if we throw an insult) we are forgetting how to rub along with other humans. The polarised communities that hang out online do not reflect normal human community. If I am a rabid rightwinger with racist views, I can now hang out with others and my echo chamber helps me to feel my views are normal. I can avoid ever being challenged because I don't say them aloud at the PTA or down the pub. So, the tribalism is being magnified.

I have been heartened by the efforts of organisations to encourage civil speech online, such as this one.

To truly understand the implications of the creation of a supercomputer, have a read of this - a two parter - but it isn't for the faint-hearted
https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/01/artificial-intelligence-revolution-1.html?utmsource=bento&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=automation&bento_uuid=7059f5d1-6b72-4079-a0a0-4d0cb1e1b8f1

Ok, I've read that now.
Firstly, when at the start you use the argument "You're going to say I'm wrong, but I'm not, you are" you must know you're on shaky ground!

Also, the main argument against seems to be:
"If our meager brains were able to invent wifi, then something 100 or 1,000 or 1 billion times smarter than we are should have no problem controlling the positioning of each and every atom in the world in any way it likes, at any time—everything we consider magic, every power we imagine a supreme God to have will be as mundane an activity for the ASI as flipping on a light switch is for us"

No. Even if such an ai was to ever exist, it would still be bound by the laws of physics. It would still require physical mechanisms to interact with the real world. The speed of light would still restrict how quickly and how far it would be able to affect things. It's a good article, but it's just a scary story.

Ok, I've read that now.

It was really long and the second part (also really long) explains exactly why the creation of a supercomputer could well mean the end of humanity.

Are you a very fast reader? And did you give yourself time to think about it?

No, it just describes something that's inevitable anyway - the extinction of a species (ours) - along with the fact that the only thing that could possibly bring us to a different end result (immortality) is an ASI.

Of course, the difference between AGI and ASI is more or less meaningless - it would likely be measure in days, maximum weeks.

The really scary prospect isn't an ASI, though. It's competing ASIs - no ASI would reasonably see humans as a threat to its existence any more than we see ants as a threat; another ASI, however, would be a significant risk.

There is one thing which is certain, though: at some point, all that will remain of the human race are the things we've built. I happen to think that it'd be awesome if that thing were able to continue into the universe while still remembering us. I don't think it really matters if that occurs next year or a thousand years from now.

I don't agree, it's not technology making us less human. It's the human interaction that's problematic. Its the job of parents to bring up children with controlled or measured and helpful technology. After all, we made the technology. Rampant capitalism around technology is making us less happy and maybe less humane but not less human. That is our own responsibility.

@ntmdino
It's competing ASIs - no ASI would reasonably see humans as a threat to its existence
Well, as you know that entirely depends on the original human programme, which even if benignly stating "eradicate the causes of climate change" could easily decide that humans are that cause and eliminate us. That's assuming AI is currently in benign hands, which we can be certain isn't the case.

Your nonchalance over the disappearance of humanity is something I cannot understand. Do you have children? This is likely to happen in their lifetime.

@PTSDBarbiegirl

But... the parents are barely aware of the extent of their own technology addiction. It's unlikely they can meaningfully protect kids from the way tech is going.

I know what you are saying that humans made tech. But I would argue that cultural trends in technology as a whole - including medicine in the form of transhumanism - is all leading us away from our humanity.

Social media has opened my eyes to how differently some people live. I literally have never met anyone in my life that behaves the way some people claim to on MN. People acting like everyone is their enemy and scared to answer the phone. It’s very sad and it makes me fear for their kids. It’s no coincidence that MH issue are at an all time high especially amongst teens. I like technology but social media is not a substitute for real friends and community.
I am glad I was bought up in an age where we played out and had mates. Where we weren’t 13 trying to emulate some instagram image. Technology is a double edged sword for definite, we will have to adapt but I expect we will see more lonely and isolated people.

I think people have always worried about what technology will do to humanity, from the invention of the plough to the invention of TV. In the 19th century people were genuinely worried about what novel reading would do to women's brains.

I think there is usually a germ of truth in this: technology does impact the way we interact with one another. But social media has both negative and positive impacts on society.

The negative ones (lack of manners, polarising political perspectives, melodrama) are well documented and I think some of this is concerning. But we hear less about the positives. The internet enables a lot of people to remain connected who otherwise wouldn't have that connection. Mumsnet is a prime example of this. I'm friends with people who I've remained in touch with via Facebook who I would otherwise have completely lost touch with.

It's important to think about the potential downsides but I think there's a tendency to see it as automatically negative and I don't think it is.

AGIs and ASIs aren't programmed - they're general, rather than the narrowly-focused AIs we currently have. We can try to instil them with values, but beyond that we'll have very little influence over them; it'll be a cooperative relationship at best.

As for the end of humanity...we're pretty close to that anyway, even without an AGI or ASI in the mix. In fact, it could be argued that our only real hope for surviving this era of rapid climate change is an ASI. And, lest we forget, there's the looming bacterial apocalypse as antibiotics begin to lose effectiveness (slated to happen at some point in the next 50 years, as I understand it).

We've got a coin flip...and there's very little you or I can do about it. Why worry about something you can't influence?

We can try to instil them with values, but beyond that we'll have very little influence over them; it'll be a cooperative relationship at best.

I think that is why I am worried!

Why worry about something you can't influence?

Well, I was hoping for something better, and cannot feel relaxed about it.

Well, from my perspective the human species will be lucky to get out of the century unscathed, even if nothing changes and AI remains limited to a copyright risk for artists and writers...and that's without thinking about the bacteriapocalypse, constant war, nuclear weapons etc.

When you start from that position, it's pretty easy to be sanguine about the risks of AI. Those are far more present dangers than Skynet/Roko's Basilisk/etc.

On the other hand...using AI, we've sequenced almost every possible protein, which has opened up the development of medicines we didn't think were possible just 10 years ago, as well as proving invaluable in the early diagnosis of various cancers and skin/eye conditions. It's already literally saving lives, even as basic as it is now.

It's also proving very useful in the development of fusion technology, which is basically limitless energy and has the potential to eradicate any need for fossil fuels on a global scale.

This is kinda my point - for all the doom-mongering, the possibility of AI saving us from ourselves isn't just some pie-in-the-sky idea, it's already starting to happen.

Better? :)

Yeah, actually, I do need to remember stuff like that.

I am just finding it very difficult to feel optimistic about anything, really.

Zager & Evans haunting lyrics, all coming true long before we get to the date. 2525

I don't think manners are a measure of how human we are. Arguably both good and bad manners are very human indeed. What makes people behave badly is our experiences and emotions and inability to control ourselves. None of that is at all machine-like. I agree that excessive use of technology, and particularly social media, is changing us, but it's not making us machine-like.

Zager & Evans haunting lyrics, all coming true long before we get to the date. 2525

I don't know what they are, but I have always thought The Future by Leonard Cohen was prescient.

Are any of you, like me, thinking about how to detach from technology?

I have thought about it. Technology is here to stay and as Im self-employed it's very useful for me in terms of marketing especially. But I won't let it consume me. I don't want to be a doom scroller, obsessed with life thru a screen. I still read, meet up with friends and family, go to concerts and other events Im interested in.

I like MN but conversely won't really bother with Facebook. I saw a thread earlier and several were saying it's a youth issue. It isn't. Im 60, most friends and acquaintances are in their 50s/60s and a good number are enmeshed in Facebook. Sitting alone between 4 walls being 'social'. Im happier with friends who can pick up the phone, meet up at times etc. So I stick to that.

I'm actually a fan of AI. It has it's uses. Although I've been amazed by seeing people believing AI images are real, when they're clearly AI. I don't get it. But human nature being what it is, some God-complex bod will eventually instigate the dark side of AI. Its inevitable.

There's not a day passes when DH isn't glued to his phone. I ask him stuff and he just doesn't always hear.

I use it too but try my best not to in front of the DC. It can turn into a nasty habit.

Agree that there's a lot of nasty people online posting to cause bother and you wonder is that how they behave IRL?? Where are their people skills.

Download the lyrics in the year 2525 they have stayed w me forever